Two Players Penalized at LPGA Q-Series for Not Knowing Rule

[rehmwa]

8 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Response to your numbered list:

1) I agree.

2) reread the facts.  Kim did tell the other players of the possible rules infraction.  You are incorrect.

Now, as to the rule and your redlighted text: She told the player and it wasn't even a duty, but something she "should" do.  Promptly is not defined; read the rule--it says certainly before the player returns their card.  She did that.

1 - sounds good - that one's easy

2 - "Kim waited until the end of the round (10 holes later) to tell the pair that they had violated Rule 10-2. "  That's not promptly.  that's the whole point

The rule says promptly then it says "and certainly before the player returns his or her scorecard"  - I read that as it's the longest delay suggested if you can't do it promptly.  I agree she met the rules.  But I bet if she unknowingly broke a rule and there were 10 holes left - she'd want to know immediately, not half a round later.

Rules followed?  no issues.  Courtesty, decisiveness and spirit of the game - not so much

Edited November 4, 2019 by rehmwa

[ncates00]

1 minute ago, rehmwa said:

Sounds good.  My understanding was they weren't informed immediately.  It was dispositioned at the end of the round.  I'll read the article again.

"Kim waited until the end of the round (10 holes later) to tell the pair that they had violated Rule 10-2."  

Two players hit with penalties LPGA Q-Series for violating advice rule

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PINEHURST, N.C. – There’s never a good time for a two-stroke penalty. But the second week of Q-Series, where a whole year’s...

 

2 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

The rule says promptly then it says "and certainly before the player returns his or her scorecard"  - I read that as it's the longest delay suggested if you can't do it promptly.  I agree she met the rules.  But I bet if she unknowingly broke a rule and there were 12 holes left - she'd want to know immediately, not half a round later.

Again, "promptly" isn't defined, unless it is elsewhere, and the rule provides guidance on the matter with respect to before turning in the scorecard.  Also, recall the other rule I cited in an earlier post that deals with not causing undue delay in handling rules issues.  Kim did a good job of telling an official.  She had no duty to even do that--read the language of the rule.  Further, she had no obligation to even tell the other player, but she did (the rule says "should," not "shall" or "must"

 

6 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Rules followed?  no issues.  Courtesty, decisiveness and spirit of the game - not so much

Courtesy-- she told her.  Decisiveness-- she spoke with a rules official.  She can't unilaterally make a rules determination with respect to a rules infringement.  Spirit of the game-- if anything she upheld the spirit of the game by bringing attention to respect for the rules of golf; seems pretty important to me.

[ncates00]

13 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

That's not promptly.  that's the whole point

You're making an assumption and reading in meaning that is not in the rule.  Read what I said in reply.  First of all, she has no duty to inform the other player.  Read the rule.  It says "should," not "shall" or "must."  Words have meaning.

However, even assuming arguendo that she does have duty to inform, considering that she cannot cause undue delay in resolving possible rules infractions and even the rules official has to check on the ruling, she was within the rule of reporting before the scorecards were turned in.  If the Rules Committee had a problem with her, they could have disqualified Kim.  See the rules.  

I know the argument you're trying to make but you have no backing other than "well, that's not fair and she's being a bully"-type arguments.  Kim was perfectly within the rules.  The only real argument you may have, that you haven't raised, was her use of social media to call out the other golfer, but even that is mere manners and social norms.  I quite like Kim calling her out.

Words have meaning, so pay attention to detail.

[rehmwa]

14 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Courtesy-- she told her.  Decisiveness-- she spoke with a rules official.  She can't unilaterally make a rules determination with respect to a rules infringement.  Spirit of the game-- if anything she upheld the spirit of the game by bringing attention to respect for the rules of golf; seems pretty important to me.

She didn't break any rules.  She did what she needed to do to get clear of the mess.  I'm fine with that, but if it's a real courtesy game, the 'shoulds' of the rule should mean more.

Courtesy - she delayed from PROMPTLY to 10 holes later - I'll disagree with you.  I doubt she'd want the same if roles were reversed.

Decisiveness - she decisively passed the buck.  and then when the official was too cowardly to act promptly and 'kicked it upstairs'.  Her hands were washed - I'll agree agree with you.

Spirit of the game - people call penalties on themselves - if you see something, you tell them directly and let them have the chance to do the right thing.  You don't hide behind the official - especially when he's screwing it up too.  I'll disagree - frank and open with your playing partners is part of the spirit.  Perhaps if they are more willing to point out these things, then respect for the rules of golf wouldn't be such a scary chore...

 

Good chat - I see your points.  I have my own.

 

3 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Words have meaning, so pay attention to detail.

that's rude from someone who didn't even read my first post before commenting on a straw man.  and we were doing so well up to then.

 

Quote

"well, that's not fair and she's being a bully"-type arguments

absolutely none of my arguments are in this vein.  I suggest you find whoever is putting these forth and not lump me in with those people.

Edited November 4, 2019 by rehmwa

[ncates00]

8 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

straw man

explain.

 

9 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

absolutely none of my arguments are in this vein.

They certainly are as you have no rule to back what you say.  You're essentially saying Kim acted unfairly.  

[Missouri Swede]

For promptness, Luke Donald set a good example as a way to handle it, back in 2012, with Rory McIlroy:

Quote

Galvanised by three birdies in six holes that revived his title challenge at the Abu Dhabi Championship, the US Open winner undid his progress here with a rules breach at the 456-yard ninth, brushing away sand that was not on the putting surface. “I don’t think you can do that,” Luke Donald, his playing partner, informed him. “Oh yeah, I can’t,” he replied. Cue a two-stroke penalty — and a flush of embarrassment.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/9043837/Rory-McIlroys-two-stroke-penalty-dents-title-hopes-at-Abu-Dhabi-HSBC-Championship.html

 

[RemyM]

Kim said she went to the rules official first because she wanted to make sure that it was still a rule (ie. wasn't removed in the new rules).  I supposed she could have blurted out "I don't think you can do that" and let it go on from there but she choose to notify an official.  From there it appears the committee dropped the ball.  That should have been a quick thing and they could have notified the players.  Since it appears they let it go until the round was over and then still took another hour to decide is on them.  Not sure who or how many people the LPGA had at this event.  Their normal tour rules officials could have been at the regular event in Asia the last two weeks.

[GolfLug]

Since we are making assumptions I see Kim's side of things. She alerted a rules official, no less, right away. Doesn't seem like she just 'let it ride' for a while. 

If she really wanted to be a dick she wouldn't have done even that.

Not everyone feels comfortable pointing out an infraction, possible or certain, to a playing partner directly. Some folks find it very confrontational and disruptive to their own state of mind.

I think she acted sufficiently and reasonably fairly while possibly protecting her own focus.

Now, not sure about the rules official. How would he not know right away that it's an infraction? Very basic. Not a complicated situation.

Edited November 4, 2019 by GolfLug

[Vinsk]

7 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I think she acted sufficiently and reasonably fairly while possibly protecting her own focus.

I can agree with that. I do think it was rather shitty of her to post it on Twitter. No one would’ve ever heard of this had she just let it go. And cryptically post ‘ Learn the rules’ when apparently she wasn’t sure herself? Did she just want to her her name back out in the media? Why post this incident on Twitter? 

[GolfLug]

4 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

 Why post this incident on Twitter? 

Welp, I can only assume she wanted to make a public service announcement even if it was at the expense of the embarrassed infractors...😊

Edited November 4, 2019 by GolfLug

[fredf]

Just arrived and enjoyed the read. My observations:

1) Mind-boggling Rules stupidity demonstrated by a Pro and a Pro's caddie. It borders on the unbelievable that they can't distinguish between a practice round and a tournament on the 'what did you hit?' issue.

2) What was the Rules Official issue thinking when it was brought to that person's attention? The RO needed to straightaway establish the facts with the players and either make the apparently straightforward ruling or at least alert the players to the process that would be followed with the Tournament Committee to resolve the issue. The Tournament Committee needs to stand up and say they could have handled things better/quicker and will learn from it. Their statement should emphasize the basic rule point here, asking and giving information about clubs played will normally involve a penalty and all players and caddies should be alert to this.

3) 90% of the discussion here is about Kim's actions, yet she is entirely the white knight here, protecting the integrity of the game.

[Lihu]

4 hours ago, rehmwa said:

So a rules official 'took a while' to answer the question on asking a caddie what club is someone hitting.......

If a rules official can't answer that specific item immediately....I'm not surprised that players won't disposition their own observations and penalties on their own with confidence......

That the official had to send it in, and then it took forever to get an answer, stands out even more than anything to me.....

Agree that this is hilarious! Imagine running a stop sign then the cops have to call it in and take an hour to decide if you broke the law or not? 😁

 

3 hours ago, rehmwa said:

1 - sounds good - that one's easy

2 - "Kim waited until the end of the round (10 holes later) to tell the pair that they had violated Rule 10-2. "  That's not promptly.  that's the whole point

The rule says promptly then it says "and certainly before the player returns his or her scorecard"  - I read that as it's the longest delay suggested if you can't do it promptly.  I agree she met the rules.  But I bet if she unknowingly broke a rule and there were 10 holes left - she'd want to know immediately, not half a round later.

Rules followed?  no issues.  Courtesty, decisiveness and spirit of the game - not so much

Kim might have just been waiting for the two players to give themselves the penalty, and waited until they were finalizing their scores before mentioning they violated the rule?

It’s like when I play, I don’t say anything unless there’s other people to protect? Kind of feel like that’s the norm for most as well?

Edited November 5, 2019 by Lihu

[rehmwa]

20 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Kim might have just been waiting for the two players to give themselves the penalty,

that's two very reasonable reasons that could give Kim the benefit of the doubt for waiting so long - thanks

(the other being she wasn't certain if the new rule changes had affected this one)

[colin007]

Good article on the "culture" of players looking out for each other

LPGA debacle: Don’t blame Christina Kim, ruling speaks to bigger issue

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Brewing beneath the surface of golf’s latest rules brouhaha is yet more...

 

[SG11118]

I'd hate to have been in Kim's place and had my playing partners cheat in front of me.  Regardless of how I handled it, I don't think I could play my normal game after that point.  Kim has been a touring pro for a decent length of time though, so is obviously more mentally tough than me.  

[iacas]

I have a number of things to say here.

Days after rules controversy, Kim still defending herself on Twitter

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Christina Kim has been tirelessly relaying her side of the story on social media, even though it has been days since the rules infraction took place.

Christina Kim feels sad about the rules controversy at LPGA Q-Series but stands by her actions that sparked it - Golf Digest

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The LPGA Tour veteran spoke to Golf Digest after driving back from Pinehurst, happy to have earned back her card but sad at the other events that unfolded

First, I think it's ridiculous that Christina is getting any grief for this. It speaks to the culture of blaming the person who calls out the rules infractions instead of the player who violated the rules. My daughter and I have both been cursed at, threatened with physical harm, etc. for calling out rules infractions (some clear as day and completely clear of subjectivity, like a person attempting to play their ball minutes after the search period ended).

Ridiculous.

That said… And yeah, I'm late to this…

On 11/4/2019 at 10:39 AM, DaveP043 said:

On one hand, by waiting Kim left the possibility that they would make the same mistake again.

She didn't wait, but I think that wasn't known when you made the post.

Also, she was under no obligation under the Rules of Golf to tell them right away. It's not match play.

For example, I've seen this done: a player breaches a rule in a somewhat obvious way, and the marker just writes their score down with the rules infraction included. At the end of the round, the players go over their scores, and say "hey, I had 4 on this hole." "No, you had 5, you did [whatever] on this hole and that's a penalty stroke."

Remember, it's incumbent upon the player himself (or herself) to KNOW AND APPLY the Rules of Golf. Christina wouldn't be wrong, under the Rules of Golf, to assume that they knew they breached the Rules and to include the penalty strokes.

The only reason she would deserve flak is because this is the real world, and we can't assume that people know the rules, and so had she waited, that would have been deserving of "cultural" flak, almost an etiquette issue… but none under the Rules of Golf. But also, she didn't wait.

On 11/4/2019 at 10:39 AM, DaveP043 said:

Reading some of the tweets, Kim apparently asked an official about the situation after play on that same hole, and the official needed to double-check whether the two players had broken a rule.  Kim says she waited rather than bring something up she wasn't 100% certain of.

The Rules Official she asked was a local volunteer, I think I read, and he wasn't certain and didn't want to give a ruling that may be wrong, yeah.

On 11/4/2019 at 11:31 AM, gbogey said:

I always find this a stupid situation, especially at the amateur level.  If I tell you I hit a 7i, what does that tell you?

It's advice that might influence your play on the course. This is pretty straightforward.

You can't do it. That person isn't on your "side."

On 11/4/2019 at 11:31 AM, gbogey said:

I may be one or two clubs longer or shorter than you

Maybe. Or maybe you're playing against two buddies who know each other's games really well and are constantly telling each other what they hit, putting you at a very real disadvantage.

I mean, c'mon man…

On 11/4/2019 at 11:31 AM, gbogey said:

That says nothing about whether I tried to hit a club the full distance.

You're not getting it. So would you penalize the guy if he says "I hit a soft 7I there"? The Rules can't make distinctions like that. They're pretty clear: you can't do it.

On 11/4/2019 at 11:49 AM, rehmwa said:

3 - Player 1, who the hell are you to decide to wait to notify a penalty??!!

She didn't. And she's allowed to, too.

On 11/4/2019 at 11:49 AM, rehmwa said:

4 - How does it take an hour for a 'committee' to deliver the confirm on the penalty?  This is pretty simple and if the players penalize themselves correctly, the 'committe' isn't even a factor.  For that matter - how does a committee "give" a penalty?  Players take their own penalties.  At most, the committed would inform the player and then the player scores themselves accordingly.

Then what are they to do when the players don't "take" their own penalty? What does this whole point of yours even mean?

On 11/4/2019 at 11:49 AM, rehmwa said:

I agree - stupid rule - you can peek at their bag, but not actually discuss golf while golfing.

Not a stupid rule. You can't give advice to someone not on your side. Looking around isn't the same as giving advice. Those two things are pretty far apart.

On 11/4/2019 at 11:49 AM, rehmwa said:

I wonder the reasoning of how it originated.  I could see that asking and discussion golf shot selection is just plain annoying and distracting and could be abused by "that guy" that thinks he plays head games....

It's ADVICE by someone not on your side.

On 11/4/2019 at 3:22 PM, saevel25 said:

I disagree. What if a person wants to know if they have a penalty?

They are entitled to know their score… because they're also supposed to know and follow the Rules.

Ergo, had the caddie known the rules, he either would have:

• Not incurred the penalty.
• Immediately notified the player of the penalty.

In either case the player would have known her score.

You give up the right to know your score in stroke play when you don't know the Rules.

And, again, Christina didn't withhold the information.

On 11/4/2019 at 3:50 PM, rehmwa said:

So a rules official 'took a while' to answer the question on asking a caddie what club is someone hitting…

I believe I read that he was a guest, volunteer official, who didn't want to commit to something.

On 11/4/2019 at 4:12 PM, rehmwa said:

1 - that rule has nothing to do with my complaint that the rules official didn't know the rule and had to send it in for comment.  Rules officials should know the rule.  He says "yes, that's a violation", and he reminds the players affected about it.  then it's in their court if it becomes an "issue" or not.  They argue?  then he pulls in the committee.  But that scenario can play out between players even without the official.

DItto what I said above. Guest rules officials are basically just there to watch out for obvious stuff and occasionally radio in for something. Yeah, this one is pretty obvious, but when players are at Q-School the stakes are high and there's a lot of pressure. They're playing for their jobs.

Better safe than sorry in cases like that.

On 11/4/2019 at 4:12 PM, rehmwa said:

You Should Protect Other Players in the Competition. If you know or believe that another player has breached the Rules and does not recognize or is ignoring this, you should tell that player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee. You should do this promptly, and certainly before the player returns his or her scorecard. Your failure to do so could be serious misconduct resulting in disqualification.

Way to fail to highlight the rest of that sentence. Let me fix this for you:

If you know or believe that another player has breached the Rules and does not recognize or is ignoring this, you should tell that player, a referee or the Committee.

Christina alerted a referee. Requirement met.

On 11/4/2019 at 5:43 PM, Vinsk said:

I do think it was rather shitty of her to post it on Twitter. No one would’ve ever heard of this had she just let it go.

Why should she have "let it go"?

Maybe she feels cheating is increasing and she's trying to do her part to encourage people to know the Rules. If she wasn't in that group, players may have gotten away with a breach.

I believe she answered "why" she posted this to social media already.

On 11/4/2019 at 7:46 PM, fredf said:

1) Mind-boggling Rules stupidity demonstrated by a Pro and a Pro's caddie. It borders on the unbelievable that they can't distinguish between a practice round and a tournament on the 'what did you hit?' issue.

Uh huh.

On 11/4/2019 at 7:46 PM, fredf said:

3) 90% of the discussion here is about Kim's actions, yet she is entirely the white knight here, protecting the integrity of the game.

Bingo.

[ncates00]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Christina alerted a referee. Requirement met.

Great overall post.  I agree.

It should be pointed out, as I stated earlier, however, that she wasn't even obligated to do that.  The rule says "should," not "must" or "shall."  

[gbogey]

I'm sorry but I don't think you were getting my point at all - I'm not saying it isn't a penalty and I'm not disagreeing with the rule - the rule is clear and I know the rule - it was a penalty.  I'm just questioning why would anyone ask?  I used to play with the same three guys every week in NJ.  I have no clue as to their club distances compared to mine except to know that I was longer than two and shorter (at least off the tee although our irons may have been the same) than one.  I have not idea if my clubs were equivalent to theirs - at least one had a set of irons that was much older than mine.  I have occasionally had (as I'm sure most people have) someone ask "what did I hit" during a casual round.  I usually respond so as not to seem rude but inside I'm laughing - what does that tell you?  I met you on the first tee and now you want to select a club based upon a shot I just hit?  I honestly don't think my response is going to help you.

Again with a pro, different situation and knowledge applies but in some ways the point is the same.