LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[Dr. Manhattan]

2 hours ago, Friz said:

I certainly understand taking care of the top players, its just the format that is not really interesting to me.  Jon Rahm had a great quote before the US Open where he mentioned the LIV format - 54 holes no cut - was to him "not a real tournament."  Is 72 holes of no cut more of a tournament? 

 

It is more of a tournament from the standpoint that many things can happen between Hole 54 and Hole 72. Just ask Greg Norman, who knows more than anyone how tough it is to finish strong in a 72-hole event. 

[Vinsk]

I think this is a good take.

[Shindig]

3 hours ago, PatrickMurtha said:

It seems to me that the biggest loss for any Cups team so far is Ancer for the International team in the Presidents - assuming that he will in fact be ineligible, it’s not entirely clear to me. He might have been a mainstay of that team for some years to come.

Free-floating comment: It has taken me many years to realize this, but a surprisingly high percentage of professional athletes are intensely self-pitying. One might think that they would be very grateful to be able to make a superior living doing (1) something that they enjoy which (2) is inherently not all that important. But in fact many feel misunderstood and hard done by their leagues / tours, fans, officials, sponsors, agents, media, and humanity in general. (Brooks Koepka: “I’m such a stud, it’s no wonder that you all hate me.”) 

I doubt LIV players will be eligible for the Presidents' Cup, seeing as how I think the PGA Tour itself has a say in it.

2 hours ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

It is more of a tournament from the standpoint that many things can happen between Hole 54 and Hole 72. Just ask Greg Norman, who knows more than anyone how tough it is to finish strong in a 72-hole event. 

Well yeah, that's why Greg is so big on a 54-hole tournament league.

[Dr. Manhattan]

16 minutes ago, Shindig said:

I doubt LIV players will be eligible for the Presidents' Cup, seeing as how I think the PGA Tour itself has a say in it.

 

PGA Tour is the 100% owner on the Presidents Cup, but I don't think the players care about it. Ryder Cup is the more interesting one. Co-owned by PGA of America and the Euro Tour. So far it seems the Euro Tour is going with a more neutral approach on LIV Golf. Won't surprise me if all 4 majors go that way too. Neutrality is the better course of action for them. 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, PatrickMurtha said:

Further, the attitude seems to be that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to interest a non-player in spectator golf, and therefore pointless to try.

I think you'd be surprised at the number of non-golfers at PGA Tour events. Even The Masters.

5 hours ago, Friz said:

Is 72 holes of no cut more of a tournament?

Yes.

5 hours ago, Friz said:

Wherever they are getting the money to fund these 8 new events, I just wish they could have come up with something a little less like the LIV format. Or found another way to reward their top guys.

They did the PIP. That rewarded their "top guys" in a different way. Look how that worked out.

4 hours ago, Big C said:

Call me crazy but I have a soft spot for Ian Poulter. He's like Reed, but with a dry wit and less cheating.

No. He's not. Poulter is an ass. In fact… google those two words… and you'll end up here:

4 hours ago, Moxley said:

I don't really like the idea of a Saudi backed tour, but as already been pointed out ,  the PGA tour sponsors do business with Saudi, we do ourselves indirectly as consumers, and , worst of all, we have golf tournaments in worse places like China.

Different things, all of those.

[iacas]

Lynch: The Saudis found Brooks Koepka’s price. What will they get?

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The decision to join LIV Golf represents a humiliation for Koepka, though he will be loathe to admit it.

Beyond now having to labor at the beck and call of people he dislikes (with good reason, to be fair), the decision to join LIV Golf represents a humiliation for Koepka, though he will be loathe to admit it. He has always fancied himself more an athlete than a golfer, but this is an admission that he’s neither, that he’s just an entertainer doomed to play exhibitions against the washed-up veterans and no-name youngsters that he’s long considered unfit to sniff his jockstrap.

[Friz]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

They did the PIP. That rewarded their "top guys" in a different way. Look how that worked out.

PIP not at all what I'd have in mind...I'm all for generously rewarding their top 50 players in a season.  And if that can't be done in as simple of a way as "good job here is some extra money for where you finished," then I guess I just wish it were done in a way that didn't resemble LIV.  Ignoring the LIV money, from the time I first started diving into LIV details I simply never cared for the format it was pushing.  The teams piece made no sense, 54 holes and shotgun starts seemed to unnecessarily shorten tournaments when I'd rather watch more golf, but the piece that bugged me the most was smaller fields and no cuts.  Now hearing the PGA is adding that 8 times every season, thats disappointing to me.  That is simply personal preference on the format, if I'm in the minority, so be it I'll adapt.

Bigger concern though, and I hope they get this part right, is if these 8 events are in season, then I assume they'll be awarding FedEx Cup points for them.  If this is last season's top 50, then we're assuming stronger fields, and similar to previous WGC events, more FedEx Cup points than whatever alternate field event is happening that week with the rest of the tour (if any).  So in theory, this leads to last season's top 50, getting 8 opportunities throughout the season to play in higher value FedEx Cup point events and receive guaranteed points.  This would create a pretty significant opportunity gap between the last season top 50 and the rest of the guys on tour, and boost opportunity to remain in the top 50.  Hopefully it doesn't actually work out that way, but its an additional concern I could see with this set up, and I really hope they find an appropriate balance.

The piece I didn't pay as close attention to when reading earlier though, is the intention to return to a season based around the calendar year starting in January, not a wraparound starting in September.  So maybe at least some of these events are not part of the PGA Tour season?  That would eliminate part of my concerns...regardless what the format is.  Curious to see what that calendar will look like.  But if any of these events are non-season events, there are lots of opportunities to get creative with format.  I've got some wild ideas that I'd personally find fairly entertaining to watch

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Friz said:

PIP not at all what I'd have in mind

You said "or found another way to reward their top guys." The PIP did that.

17 minutes ago, Friz said:

The teams piece made no sense

How do you figure? It's not inscrutable.

17 minutes ago, Friz said:

Now hearing the PGA is adding that 8 times every season, thats disappointing to me.

It's not really about you, though.

17 minutes ago, Friz said:

Bigger concern though, and I hope they get this part right, is if these 8 events are in season, then I assume they'll be awarding FedEx Cup points for them.

I think I read somewhere that they're not, or it'd just go a long way toward making sure the prior year's top 50 are the next year's top 50… and punishing those who are injured or choose to skip beyond just missing out on the $.

[Friz]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

You said "or found another way to reward their top guys." The PIP did that.

I guess I was trying to leave an open book of possibilities, not fixate on a specific alternative.  I'm happy to come up with a bunch of fun ideas though if I can get in touch with the right people

 

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

How do you figure? It's not inscrutable.

I think we discussed this earlier in this thread, that the LIV guys are basically making it up as they go.  To this point, I still don't know what the teams piece is going to look like in future events.  Are captains the same?  If so, what happens if a captain can't play for any reason?  Are they trying to keep similar teams in future events?  Are there season long teams standings?  I can follow what they're doing with teams through a single event....but having a team throughout a season and reshuffling the players on those teams every single event does not make sense to me in team sports, and I haven't seen any clarification on the long term plan for the team structure.

 

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's not really about you, though.

I did clarify in my following sentence that those feelings were merely my personal opinions on the format

 

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think I read somewhere that they're not, or it'd just go a long way toward making sure the prior year's top 50 are the next year's top 50… and punishing those who are injured or choose to skip beyond just missing out on the $.

I didn't read that piece, and I hope its true.  Would be interested if you happened find that source again.  That second part was my immediate reaction in thinking this could really segregate the tour into a perpetual Top 50 and "everyone else."  Of course I spend much of my professional time trying to identify flaws and poke holes in ideas to ensure things are as foolproof as can be when implemented.  Its bound to carry over into hobbies and other discussions

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Friz said:

I did clarify in my following sentence that those feelings were merely my personal opinions on the format

You’re missing the point. It’s not about you (fans). It’s about taking care of the better players.

[Friz]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

You’re missing the point. It’s not about you (fans). It’s about taking care of the better players.

Thats fair....my reaction is simply as a fan and what would create the most interest to watch personally.  I won't pretend to know what the majority of fans want to see, so I can only speak from my personal opinion in that space.  Is there a reasonable way to take care of the better players that also addresses fan interest and doesn't mimic an LIV tournament?  I'd like to think so....but maybe this is what the majority of fans want to see too?  I honestly don't know.

Yes I want the better players taken care of and I don't want to see those guys bolting for LIV.....I'm just searching for that intersection of the venn diagram between whats best for those guys and also best for the fans.  In my tiny sample size of personal opinion of what I'd find most entertaining as a fan, the small field no cut events aren't it.

[BruceMGF]

16 hours ago, PatrickMurtha said:

On that topic, there cannot be another professional sport whose fandom consists so largely of those who actively play it as amateurs.

Tennis?

[Moxley]

1 minute ago, BruceMGF said:

Tennis?

I don't know, I enjoy watching women's tennis despite not participating in it...

[Carl3]

14 minutes ago, BruceMGF said:

Tennis?

Supposedly these are the top ten sports in the world by participation:

1	Soccer
2	Badminton
3	Field Hockey
4	Volleyball
5	Basketball
6	Tennis
7	Cricket
8	Table Tennis
9	Baselball/Softball
10	Golf

 

I read that golf is a little more popular than tennis in the US.

[Friz]

The Open: Players who have joined LIV Golf series permitted to play at St Andrews - BBC Sport

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Players who have joined the Saudi Arabian-backed LIV Golf series will be allowed to play at The Open at St...

 

[ChetlovesMer]

16 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I think this is a good take.

I have to agree. I think that is a good take.

I really like the part about "Don't tell me you are trying to grow the game". 
I wish they'd just say "They are going to pay me a crap load of money and I like money." I'd have way more respect for that response. 

[Darkfrog]

25 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I wish they'd just say "They are going to pay me a crap load of money and I like money." I'd have way more respect for that response.

I'd respect them more for being honest, but I would also still think they're a bunch of obnoxiously greedy douchebags.

[p1n9183]

On 6/8/2022 at 4:28 PM, Zeph said:

Is the morale, ethics and reputation of these companies irrelevant to you? Doesn’t matter what they do or how they do it as long as you get more money?

I don't care about public reputation or what the media suggest you to think. Do you really know what is happening in the other side of the world? have you ever been there and see with your own eyes the truth or you are guiding your opinion according to what other people decided to show you on tv?
I prefer to do my own information gathering to take a decision and don't let other people opinion misguide me from the truth.