LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[iacas]

5 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

My observation is that in the 21st century having to ask your employer permission to engage in another gig is pretty much out of step with the current culture.

It's not out of step with the regulations they agreed to abide by.

15 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Those clauses are all well and dandy for employees, but are generally illegal for independent contractors.

Once again, they're not completely independent contractors. They have to meet obligations, and they agreed to certain terms.

[70sSanO]

I can’t disagree with what everyone has brought up.  I just don’t have a lot of confidence that what the players originally signed, or if they refused to sign they can’t play, will hold up if taken to court.

I think in the course of our lives we have had to agree to terms or forfeit an opportunity.  I’m not sure how enforceable those terms have really been.

Don’t get me wrong, I never want to see any of those players play in a PGA, R&A, USGA, or any other non-LIV event.  And if they do I only wish for missed cuts.

I also don’t want them getting their LIV payday and then playing on the Champions Tour; regardless of any mea culpas that might transpire in the coming years.  I suspect most of them will really want that down the road and hopefully regret their actions.

John

Edited July 13, 2022 by 70sSanO

[sjduffers]

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

Those clauses are all well and dandy for employees, but are generally illegal for independent contractors. You cannot generally control whether or not an independent contractor can do work for other companies or organizations, and certainly not without specific compensation for such a term in exchange other than the job itself. Hence the potential tax implications if courts were to determine the PGA Tour is treating their players as employees.

You're saying you can work on a project for the US DOD, and also work on another project for the Chinese military, for example? I seriously doubt that, but I don't work for either one...

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

You're saying you can work on a project for the US DOD, and also work on another project for the Chinese military, for example? I seriously doubt that, but I don't work for either one...

He said "generally." So no, he's not saying that.

[Aguirre]

Listen, I was an independent contractor and then a franchisee for twenty one years. Those of you suggesting that means you can do whatever the hell you want don't know shit about f***. Particularly when it's a direct competitor. You have agreements in your contract, or franchise agreement. You sign that paperwork. End of story.

Some of you remind me of dopes who confuse the freedom of speech amendment with some sort of freedom from consequences.

EDIT--Now if that language is legally shaky, it may not hold up in court. But that is not for guy jabbing at his keyboard while warming up fish sticks to decide.

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Aguirre

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, Pretzel said:

Those clauses are all well and dandy for employees, but are generally illegal for independent contractors. You cannot generally control whether or not an independent contractor can do work for other companies or organizations, and certainly not without specific compensation for such a term in exchange other than the job itself. Hence the potential tax implications if courts were to determine the PGA Tour is treating their players as employees.

Well we get this quite often in physician contracts. As an independent contractor, I always had ‘non-compete’ clauses that would not allow me to work at any competitors clinic within a certain mileage range. Not only while employed, but even after I’ve left the position for a specified time period.

[JenH]

Hi All, I'm new to the site but a golfer and golf fan for 40 years. I'm sort of surprised that something like LIV Golf hasn't challenged the PGA before. It seems that most great, successful organizations have challengers and LIV has tossed their hat into the ring along with some serious money to prime the pump and create interest. LIV isn't just nipping at the heels of the PGA. LIV is creating a serious problem for the longevity of the PGA. The PGA needs to step up their marketing (up to 1990's standards) and loosen the tie a bit. If one is a traditionalist, they might side with the PGA's culture/ethos/tradition. But tradition doesn't pay the bills. Being on the tour is EXPENSIVE regardless of ranking and sponsorships. There isn't a single PGA professional that would go on tour just for the tradition of it...it ALL eventually boils down to money and LIV is offering it up to pro's (struggling or not) that never thought they would have a chance at that kind of money. Tiger alluded to the PGA's great "history and tradition" and no one can argue that but tradition is a fickle thing...not long ago it was that same sense of "tradition" that wouldn't allow great men like him in the clubhouse.   

[turtleback]

5 hours ago, JenH said:

Hi All, I'm new to the site but a golfer and golf fan for 40 years. I'm sort of surprised that something like LIV Golf hasn't challenged the PGA before. It seems that most great, successful organizations have challengers and LIV has tossed their hat into the ring along with some serious money to prime the pump and create interest. LIV isn't just nipping at the heels of the PGA. LIV is creating a serious problem for the longevity of the PGA. The PGA needs to step up their marketing (up to 1990's standards) and loosen the tie a bit. If one is a traditionalist, they might side with the PGA's culture/ethos/tradition. But tradition doesn't pay the bills. Being on the tour is EXPENSIVE regardless of ranking and sponsorships. There isn't a single PGA professional that would go on tour just for the tradition of it...it ALL eventually boils down to money and LIV is offering it up to pro's (struggling or not) that never thought they would have a chance at that kind of money. Tiger alluded to the PGA's great "history and tradition" and no one can argue that but tradition is a fickle thing...not long ago it was that same sense of "tradition" that wouldn't allow great men like him in the clubhouse.   

Welcome to the board!

The fundamental difference between the PGA Tour and LIV, is that the PGA Tour - organization, players, and charities -  live on money they generate, while the LIV Tours lives on money largely unrelalated to their golf activities that is provided by some of the worst people on the planet.  IMO

[iacas]

And the LIV bots have found us.

[ChetlovesMer]

2 hours ago, turtleback said:

The fundamental difference between the PGA Tour and LIV, is that the PGA Tour - organization, players, and charities -  live on money they generate, while the LIV Tours lives on money largely unrelalated to their golf activities that is provided by some of the worst people on the planet.  IMO

I'd upvote this comment twice if I could. 👍👍

[ChetlovesMer]

8 hours ago, JenH said:

I'm sort of surprised that something like LIV Golf hasn't challenged the PGA before.

Really? Cuz, I'm not surprised in the least.

Sports leagues are super expensive. That's why MLB has never had a serious challenger. The NBA hasn't. The NFL hasn't since the USFL in the 80's. Back then you could buy a football team for $30-$50 million. Today a couple billion seems to be the going rate. To start a "real" league requires a lot of money. ... A LOT of money. 

So, I'm not surprised at all. Plus, there's the European tour (which is really 3 tours.) There's the Australian and Asian tours. The world has only been this small for a relatively short time. So again, I'm not surprised. 

The only way to start a rival sports league (at least one with any real chance of success) is to throw A LOT of money at it. Minor league baseball has had some challengers over the years, but never MLB. It is simply too expensive. If you're comment above is serious, you should look into sports economics ... maybe economics in general. 

[Shindig]

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

The only way to start a rival sports league (at least one with any real chance of success) is to throw A LOT of money at it. Minor league baseball has had some challengers over the years, but never MLB. It is simply too expensive. If you're comment above is serious, you should look into sports economics ... maybe economics in general. 

Or have it live in a different space.  The AFL was successful for a while, and the IFL is still going strong, but will never rival the NFL (it's still fun).   There have been some upstart football leagues that weren't trying to compete with the NFL lately;  I was sad when the 2019 league folded, I thought XFL 2.0 had a chance until, well, you know, and the USFL rebirth just had a successful (by some measure) season.  But, as before, none will ever compete with the NFL.

But LIV is trying none of these things.  Although I would be curious to see how Poulter fares if it becomes the arena golf league. 

[ChetlovesMer]

4 minutes ago, Shindig said:

Or have it live in a different space.  The AFL was successful for a while, and the IFL is still going strong, but will never rival the NFL (it's still fun).   There have been some upstart football leagues that weren't trying to compete with the NFL lately;  I was sad when the 2019 league folded, I thought XFL 2.0 had a chance until, well, you know, and the USFL rebirth just had a successful (by some measure) season.  But, as before, none will ever compete with the NFL.

But LIV is trying none of these things.  Although I would be curious to see how Poulter fares if it becomes the arena golf league. 

Agreed. 

LIV is literally throwing gobs of money at the problem. Insane mountains of money. 

[RFKFREAK]

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Agreed. 

LIV is literally throwing gobs of money at the problem. Insane mountains of money. 

And I hope they lose every last dime.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, RFKFREAK said:

And I hope they lose every last dime.

All $600B? 😛

[imsys0042]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

All $600B? 😛

Just give it to Mickelson to gamble with....

[iacas]

Report: LIV golfers to be banned from all majors from 2023

---

According to a report from The Daily Mail, players who’ve joined LIV Golf are set to be banned from all...

 

[70sSanO]

4 hours ago, Shindig said:

But LIV is trying none of these things.  Although I would be curious to see how Poulter fares if it becomes the arena golf league. 

Is this a Topgolf opportunity?

John