LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[DeadMan]

If anyone is curious, here’s the written decision on the TRO:

LIV Decision.pdf - Google Drive

The irreparable harm section is very interesting. I haven’t read all of those cases, but I think the judge has some really strong reasoning there. 
 

There is also a little nugget for LIV at the end. She says the claims are facially appealing, and hints they may win with a more developed record. 

[Shindig]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

The judge specifically said that she felt it was filed in a timely manner.

It seems to have come down almost entirely to the fact that they were not harmed nor were they going to be.

Thanks, I didn't see that part.

6 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

When I saw a picture of Phil a week ago, the thought that initially went through my mind was that “he used to play golf.”

You are correct that Phil used to play golf.  He still does, but he used to, too.

[Aguirre]

5 hours ago, Big Lex said:

It's said everyone has a price. I wonder what I would do if someone offered me 10 times what I already make to do my same job (or even an easier, less stress version of it). The temptation would be so strong. But no matter how many times I roll the idea around in my head, I can't imagine allowing myself to say yes to an association with the Saudi regime, at any price. I would be afraid I wouldn't be able to live with myself, and once you make the decision and go, it's with you forever, you can't take it back. 

 

What you said, of course, but also add in that you were already financially set for life. Which is the case for most of these players, outside a few laughable randos like Pat Perez.

3 hours ago, chspeed said:

Ugh. Such a tired argument. The idea that humor has to rely on offensive, stereotypical tropes is just a sign of an old, lazy crank. He can't change, so it's everyone else's fault they they don't find him funny anymore.

Yes, and iacas point, too. Let's see him criticize the Saudi government for their record on LBGTQ rights. Speak your mind, David.

[GolfLug]

6 hours ago, DeadMan said:

If anyone is curious, here’s the written decision on the TRO:

LIV Decision.pdf - Google Drive

The irreparable harm section is very interesting. I haven’t read all of those cases, but I think the judge has some really strong reasoning there. 
 

There is also a little nugget for LIV at the end. She says the claims are facially appealing, and hints they may win with a more developed record. 

Thanks. If anyone has the time it is a good read. 

I'm curious though, as to why or how a more developed record could present a different light in which to view the claims assuming it means they might have more merit then.

From my perspective, it would weaken the LIV golfers' case even further, them having an established and financially gainful career with LIV. What would be the angle then for their case?

Edited August 11, 2022 by GolfLug

[Vinsk]

Just a pack of lazy ex-competitors or non-winners who are taking the easy road of mediocre playing. A player can finish DFL in all 15 tournaments and gross over $1.8 mil. And that’s playing three round tournaments. LIV honestly thinks that’s a model for growing the game? Such a shame that Cam can be on possibly the height of his career and throw away that desire that got him on the PGA TOUR in the first place. It’s sports. Professional sports. We all understand someone’s wanting to make more money and do less. But when it come to professional sports, that’s seldom a winning model or a respected one. 

Bottom line is it’s the fans that have made these players wealthy. Sports produce nothing for people but entertainment. If it weren’t for our love of these games, it would be a hobby alone. Essentially these ass clowns are defecting and turning their backs on what/ who  made them able to even pursue this semi-retired, exhibition money grab. I have no respect for them. Not that it matters at all apparently.

[jshots]

The more I think about it - LIV isn't great, , but the PGA Tour seemingly wants all the power and that isn't great either. Golf is due for a major restructuring of power, the game doesn't just exist in America and it should be played equally on the highest level across the entire world. The only real problem I have with LIV is the dumb format.

I would like to see half the season played regionally, USA, Europe, Asia, then the second half the year played globally with the top players from all of the regions, one tournament every other week similar to Formula 1. Every large region gets a single major event, and then The Masters b/c its special. LIV gets the middle eastern region .

Edited August 11, 2022 by jshots

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, jshots said:

…but the PGA Tour seemingly wants all the power and that isn't great either.

What does something like that even mean?

They want to be as successful as they can? Yeah, no kidding. But the PGA Tour is run by the players, the members, who write and ratify their own rules, and hire people to enforce them and engage on their behalf with sponsors, etc.

16 minutes ago, jshots said:

the game doesn't just exist in America

The PGA Tour largely does. The two quoted statements really contradict each other a bit - if the PGA Tour wanted "all the power" they'd be branching out across the globe far more than they are. Also, the PGA Tour granted releases for their members to play in Saudi Arabia, but only when the LIV tour was formed with events in the United States was there any real action taken.

16 minutes ago, jshots said:

The only real problem I have with LIV is the dumb format.

Well, others have other very real problems with LIV. And I am referring to more than just the source of funding.

[DeadMan]

5 hours ago, GolfLug said:

I'm curious though, as to why or how a more developed record could present a different light in which to view the claims assuming it means they might have more merit then.

As the case move forward, the LIV golfers will be able to get discovery, which means they'll get e-mails, documents, etc. from the PGA Tour. They'll also be able to depose PGA Tour people. Right now, all they have is their own e-mails, their own statements, etc. They'll hope to be able to get more evidence to support their claims through that process. 

Additionally, to get a TRO, they needed to show a likelihood of success on the merits. That's a fairly high bar. When it comes to trial, they'll only need to show through a preponderance (more than 50%) of the evidence that their claims will succeed. It's less of a bar than needed for the TRO.

That said, the judge is very skeptical of their claims. In front of this judge, it does seem like they are unlikely to win. Right now, they are probably exploring whether to voluntarily dismiss the case and file a slightly different version somewhere else.

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

As the case move forward, the LIV golfers will be able to get discovery, which means they'll get e-mails, documents, etc. from the PGA Tour. They'll also be able to depose PGA Tour people. Right now, all they have is their own e-mails, their own statements, etc. They'll hope to be able to get more evidence to support their claims through that process. 

They'll also continue to operate and grow. Heck, if they get Cam Smith, their "monopoly" argument takes a hit.

23 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

That said, the judge is very skeptical of their claims. In front of this judge, it does seem like they are unlikely to win. Right now, they are probably exploring whether to voluntarily dismiss the case and file a slightly different version somewhere else.

Which is probably not looked upon as "great" either. I'm not saying it's a big hit, but I imagine gaming the system like this aren't even viewed entirely neutrally.

[Golfingdad]

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Just a pack of lazy ex-competitors or non-winners who are taking the easy road of mediocre playing. A player can finish DFL in all 15 tournaments and gross over $1.8 mil. And that’s playing three round tournaments. LIV honestly thinks that’s a model for growing the game? Such a shame that Cam can be on possibly the height of his career and throw away that desire that got him on the PGA TOUR in the first place. It’s sports. Professional sports. We all understand someone’s wanting to make more money and do less. But when it come to professional sports, that’s seldom a winning model or a respected one. 

Bottom line is it’s the fans that have made these players wealthy. Sports produce nothing for people but entertainment. If it weren’t for our love of these games, it would be a hobby alone. Essentially these ass clowns are defecting and turning their backs on what/ who  made them able to even pursue this semi-retired, exhibition money grab. I have no respect for them. Not that it matters at all apparently.

Great post - highly stressing the bold part.

[jshots]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

What does something like that even mean?

They want to be as successful as they can? Yeah, no kidding. But the PGA Tour is run by the players, the members, who write and ratify their own rules, and hire people to enforce them and engage on their behalf with sponsors, etc.

The PGA Tour largely does. The two quoted statements really contradict each other a bit - if the PGA Tour wanted "all the power" they'd be branching out across the globe far more than they are. Also, the PGA Tour granted releases for their members to play in Saudi Arabia, but only when the LIV tour was formed with events in the United States was there any real action taken.

It just means when it comes down to it they are anti competition. Whether illegally or not I guess is up for debate but they clearly currently have all the power in the US, top level golfers don't have a choice on which tour they are going to play. The contractual tour restrictions of course were never a problem until a valid competitor comes along, but now that it has they are using it to maintain their control, IMO the tour restrictions shouldn't be there in the first place. 

Regardless of how it plays out in the short term with the bans, if the PGA Tour can't provide the players what they want then they will lose players and deservingly so, whether LIV or something else. It seems to me like the PGA Tour is only really hurting themselves by not letting players play different tours. PGA Tour wins when they have great fields, and lose a lot by banning top layers.

[Friz]

24 minutes ago, jshots said:

It seems to me like the PGA Tour is only really hurting themselves by not letting players play different tours. PGA Tour wins when they have great fields, and lose a lot by banning top layers.

These seem like contradictory statements.  Its already established LIV isn't worried about being profitable or self-sustaining, so they can throw enough money out there to outspend the PGA Tour in prize money.  If the PGA Tour let players play different tours, they could lose more top guys week in and week out as they go play somewhere else, knowing they can come back any time.  By banning top players who break the rules, they lose SOME top guys ALL the time, rather than losing ALL the top guys SOME of the time.  And right now, they haven't lost anywhere near enough relevant players to simply open those floodgates for everyone to go some of the time.

PGA Tour has every right to do what is best for them.  They didn't prevent LIV from forming, they didn't forcibly prevent players from joining LIV, all they did was say if you go play there, you can't play here.  They'd be hurting themselves a lot more if all the top guys were playing somewhere else half the time.  Their fields would be weaker overall.  Keeping most of the top guys in PGA Tour events by banning the ones who left are going to lead to better fields more often than the alternative.

[iacas]

44 minutes ago, jshots said:

It just means when it comes down to it they are anti competition.

What business isn't? Do you think they should try to build up their competition?

44 minutes ago, jshots said:

Whether illegally or not I guess is up for debate but they clearly currently have all the power in the US

No they don't. LIV has already poached players and had events in the U.S. They're going to have even more next year.

44 minutes ago, jshots said:

top level golfers don't have a choice on which tour they are going to play.

Huh? Cam Smith is going to LIV. He had/has a choice.

44 minutes ago, jshots said:

The contractual tour restrictions of course were never a problem until a valid competitor comes along, but now that it has they are using it to maintain their control, IMO the tour restrictions shouldn't be there in the first place.

Uhmmmm, nah.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, jshots said:

IMO the tour restrictions shouldn't be there in the first place.

As I remember, the current PGA Tour requirements and restrictions were developed to help maximize opportunities for the players as a group.  Small market tournaments, less popular tournaments, were struggling to find and maintain sponsors.  Without sponsors, those tournaments could have gone away.  So the Tour adapted, requiring players to commit to a minimum number tournaments, and requiring players to play in some number of different tournaments each year.  Those requirements, as brutal as they are, improve the strength of field for many of the "lesser" tournaments, making them more attractive for advertisers and sponsors.  More sponsors, more advertisers, more tournaments, that means more money available for more players.  And remember, these rules were developed and approved by the players themselves.

[PatrickMurtha]

21 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

Or some of us will stop watching it altogether, except for the majors.

Seconded. Quite apart from the very serious sports-washing / Saudi issues, the format and the VIBE of LIV just don’t interest me at all. It will not be clear for a while exactly who is engaged by them, since head-to-head TV ratings are not likely to happen in the foreseeable future. Sure, there is some LIV enthusiasm in social media, but much of that is obviously bots, so give it a huge discount. And the novelty factor will probably wear off fairly quickly.

Right now, the game of golf has shifted from something played on a course with a ball to a media-driven “Who’s going? Who’s not going? Who’s barbing at whom? What’s TFG’s involvement? How are things going in court?” circus. This is getting tiresome fast. Other people here have said they’re becoming numb, and I would concur with that. 

None of the players who have left rings my bell in an especially positive way. It’s too bad about Cam Smith ranking-wise but I can’t say as I’ll miss the haircut. If Hideki goes, I will be sad about that. There are others that would sting. But we’re not quite there yet, and if some players that I like DO defect, I’m just going to like them less, that’s all. I used to like Phil, I used to like Poulter’s plaid trousers even. But one adapts to changing circumstances. Whatever those guys will be doing and for whatever reasons, it’s not a variety of golf I’m likely to be interested in. 

(Historical note: I lost interest in major league baseball at the time of the 1994 strike, and I never really returned to it. I don’t think I’m the only one in that boat. Fans have a breaking point and can always find other things to do.)

Edited August 11, 2022 by PatrickMurtha

[jshots]

51 minutes ago, iacas said:

What business isn't? Do you think they should try to build up their competition?

Obviously everyone wants to beat the competition, when you try to beat your competition by means other than providing a better/cheaper product you are bordering on illegal in the USA. 

 

21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

And remember, these rules were developed and approved by the players themselves.

Doesn't necessarily mean that all players agreed unanimously on them.

 

51 minutes ago, iacas said:

No they don't. LIV has already poached players and had events in the U.S. They're going to have even more next year.

Huh? Cam Smith is going to LIV. He had/has a choice.

PGA Tour is practically synonymous with professional golf at the highest level. My 2 cents is that they shouldn't be able to restrict access to that level of professional golf based on being involved with a competing tour. Even if they can legally they shouldn't, its bad for the game and the players, as more players leave, its bad for the fans too. If the PGA Tour tightens its grip I guarantee more players are going to leave.

Edited August 11, 2022 by jshots

[Shindig]

10 minutes ago, jshots said:

PGA Tour is practically synonymous with professional golf at the highest level. My 2 cents is that they shouldn't be able to restrict access to that level of professional golf based on being involved with a competing tour. Even if they can legally they shouldn't, its bad for the game and the players, as more players leave, its bad for the fans too. If the PGA Tour tightens its grip I guarantee more players are going to leave.

How is that different from any other employer, including those who employ contractors?  I can't go work for the competition and expect to keep my job, even if I could maintain my responsibilities to both on the same schedule. 

[vasaribm]

Scottie playing mind games...

Scottie Scheffler, Cameron Smith share awkward moment at FedEx St. Jude Championship

---

The Rules of Golf are extensive and can be pretty confusing at times.

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by vasaribm