LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[Big Lex]

My buddies and I were discussing Cam Smith while watching the Open, and we all felt sure he would eventually jump. The more guys jump - especially guys like him, a current top player in his prime - the more others will want to follow I think.

It's said everyone has a price. I wonder what I would do if someone offered me 10 times what I already make to do my same job (or even an easier, less stress version of it). The temptation would be so strong. But no matter how many times I roll the idea around in my head, I can't imagine allowing myself to say yes to an association with the Saudi regime, at any price. I would be afraid I wouldn't be able to live with myself, and once you make the decision and go, it's with you forever, you can't take it back. 

So are all these guys just sort of morally and ethically inert? I don't like thinking that way, I like thinking that these guys are basically just normal, good people. But it seems like it would take alot of rationalization for someone with an active conscience and strong ethics to join something like this. People keep saying "greed," but everyone is greedy to a point. Usually there are attendant risks in any situation which counteract greedy impulses. I guess I'm happy I won't ever have to make such a choice. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Big Lex

[GolfLug]

56 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

So are all these guys just sort of morally and ethically inert? 

It can't be that black and white. It's not like they would kill someone for the right price (at least I don't think). They have a ceiling too. Its just that their ceiling is higher and selfishness is thicker than yours. It's that simple. 

In the context of this whole thing they qualify as world-class douchebags. You know like the assholes who take up two parking spots just so no one else could park close enough to have the possibility of dinging their precious paint job. 

[jshots]

1 hour ago, Big Lex said:

My buddies and I were discussing Cam Smith while watching the Open, and we all felt sure he would eventually jump. The more guys jump - especially guys like him, a current top player in his prime - the more others will want to follow I think.

It's said everyone has a price. I wonder what I would do if someone offered me 10 times what I already make to do my same job (or even an easier, less stress version of it). The temptation would be so strong. But no matter how many times I roll the idea around in my head, I can't imagine allowing myself to say yes to an association with the Saudi regime, at any price. I would be afraid I wouldn't be able to live with myself, and once you make the decision and go, it's with you forever, you can't take it back. 

So are all these guys just sort of morally and ethically inert? I don't like thinking that way, I like thinking that these guys are basically just normal, good people. But it seems like it would take alot of rationalization for someone with an active conscience and strong ethics to join something like this. People keep saying "greed," but everyone is greedy to a point. Usually there are attendant risks in any situation which counteract greedy impulses. I guess I'm happy I won't ever have to make such a choice. 

Personally don't think joining a saudi backed golf league makes you immoral. There is a lot to unpack there IMO - but its not like they are joining LIV and getting sent a designated caddy slave. I'm sure you could find some immoral ties through the PGA Tour as well.

Its really just a shame they can't all play nice and let players pick and choose events. OWGR should almost step in and say, we don't give a f*** where you play if the field is good enough and you follow a certain set of rules, and here is a completely unaffiliated playoff event that is strictly OWGR based.

Let the best events come out on top.

[iacas]

Uhhhh…

1 hour ago, Big Lex said:

My buddies and I were discussing Cam Smith while watching the Open, and we all felt sure he would eventually jump. The more guys jump - especially guys like him, a current top player in his prime - the more others will want to follow I think.

They have only 48 spots, though. So it's not like everyone can just keep going there.

[Big Lex]

7 minutes ago, jshots said:

Personally don't think joining a saudi backed golf league makes you immoral. There is a lot to unpack there IMO 

I agree. I wrote morally ethically "inert" because I didn't want to call them truly immoral. I just wondered if somehow they maybe just don't think of these things on that level or at that depth....it's a job, and they go where the pay is good, and don't ask questions. Or something like that.

And I do believe there is a difference between actually doing something criminal and working for someone or something which is tied in some way to illegal activity. Not to go down the rabbit hole of comparisons (i.e., we all live off their oil, yadda yadda yadda), but it is not as if the entire Public Investment Trust is comprised of blood money. 

[chspeed]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Uhhhh…

They have only 48 spots, though. So it's not like everyone can just keep going there.

Ugh. Such a tired argument. The idea that humor has to rely on offensive, stereotypical tropes is just a sign of an old, lazy crank. He can't change, so it's everyone else's fault they they don't find him funny anymore.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, chspeed said:

Ugh. Such a tired argument. The idea that humor has to rely on offensive, stereotypical tropes is just a sign of an old, lazy crank. He can't change, so it's everyone else's fault they they don't find him funny anymore.

I just found it funny that he went to LIV so he could "speak his mind." Which, if you watched the first event he did… he was just saying a bunch of suck-up type shit about that stuff. It wasn't more honest, it was just the same old stuff in a different format.

Plus, what you said, yes.

[Zippo]

41 minutes ago, jshots said:

Personally don't think joining a saudi backed golf league makes you immoral. There is a lot to unpack there IMO - but its not like they are joining LIV and getting sent a designated caddy slave. I'm sure you could find some immoral ties through the PGA Tour as well.

Its really just a shame they can't all play nice and let players pick and choose events. OWGR should almost step in and say, we don't give a f*** where you play if the field is good enough and you follow a certain set of rules, and here is a completely unaffiliated playoff event that is strictly OWGR based.

Let the best events come out on top.

Sure. I can see it now. Augusta National could have a 54 hole event with teams and a shotgun start. They could hand out brown jackets to the winners...

[DeadMan]

If anyone is curious, here’s the written decision on the TRO:

LIV Decision.pdf - Google Drive

The irreparable harm section is very interesting. I haven’t read all of those cases, but I think the judge has some really strong reasoning there. 
 

There is also a little nugget for LIV at the end. She says the claims are facially appealing, and hints they may win with a more developed record. 

[Shindig]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

The judge specifically said that she felt it was filed in a timely manner.

It seems to have come down almost entirely to the fact that they were not harmed nor were they going to be.

Thanks, I didn't see that part.

6 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

When I saw a picture of Phil a week ago, the thought that initially went through my mind was that “he used to play golf.”

You are correct that Phil used to play golf.  He still does, but he used to, too.

[Aguirre]

5 hours ago, Big Lex said:

It's said everyone has a price. I wonder what I would do if someone offered me 10 times what I already make to do my same job (or even an easier, less stress version of it). The temptation would be so strong. But no matter how many times I roll the idea around in my head, I can't imagine allowing myself to say yes to an association with the Saudi regime, at any price. I would be afraid I wouldn't be able to live with myself, and once you make the decision and go, it's with you forever, you can't take it back. 

 

What you said, of course, but also add in that you were already financially set for life. Which is the case for most of these players, outside a few laughable randos like Pat Perez.

3 hours ago, chspeed said:

Ugh. Such a tired argument. The idea that humor has to rely on offensive, stereotypical tropes is just a sign of an old, lazy crank. He can't change, so it's everyone else's fault they they don't find him funny anymore.

Yes, and iacas point, too. Let's see him criticize the Saudi government for their record on LBGTQ rights. Speak your mind, David.

[GolfLug]

6 hours ago, DeadMan said:

If anyone is curious, here’s the written decision on the TRO:

LIV Decision.pdf - Google Drive

The irreparable harm section is very interesting. I haven’t read all of those cases, but I think the judge has some really strong reasoning there. 
 

There is also a little nugget for LIV at the end. She says the claims are facially appealing, and hints they may win with a more developed record. 

Thanks. If anyone has the time it is a good read. 

I'm curious though, as to why or how a more developed record could present a different light in which to view the claims assuming it means they might have more merit then.

From my perspective, it would weaken the LIV golfers' case even further, them having an established and financially gainful career with LIV. What would be the angle then for their case?

Edited August 11, 2022 by GolfLug

[Vinsk]

Just a pack of lazy ex-competitors or non-winners who are taking the easy road of mediocre playing. A player can finish DFL in all 15 tournaments and gross over $1.8 mil. And that’s playing three round tournaments. LIV honestly thinks that’s a model for growing the game? Such a shame that Cam can be on possibly the height of his career and throw away that desire that got him on the PGA TOUR in the first place. It’s sports. Professional sports. We all understand someone’s wanting to make more money and do less. But when it come to professional sports, that’s seldom a winning model or a respected one. 

Bottom line is it’s the fans that have made these players wealthy. Sports produce nothing for people but entertainment. If it weren’t for our love of these games, it would be a hobby alone. Essentially these ass clowns are defecting and turning their backs on what/ who  made them able to even pursue this semi-retired, exhibition money grab. I have no respect for them. Not that it matters at all apparently.

[jshots]

The more I think about it - LIV isn't great, , but the PGA Tour seemingly wants all the power and that isn't great either. Golf is due for a major restructuring of power, the game doesn't just exist in America and it should be played equally on the highest level across the entire world. The only real problem I have with LIV is the dumb format.

I would like to see half the season played regionally, USA, Europe, Asia, then the second half the year played globally with the top players from all of the regions, one tournament every other week similar to Formula 1. Every large region gets a single major event, and then The Masters b/c its special. LIV gets the middle eastern region .

Edited August 11, 2022 by jshots

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, jshots said:

…but the PGA Tour seemingly wants all the power and that isn't great either.

What does something like that even mean?

They want to be as successful as they can? Yeah, no kidding. But the PGA Tour is run by the players, the members, who write and ratify their own rules, and hire people to enforce them and engage on their behalf with sponsors, etc.

16 minutes ago, jshots said:

the game doesn't just exist in America

The PGA Tour largely does. The two quoted statements really contradict each other a bit - if the PGA Tour wanted "all the power" they'd be branching out across the globe far more than they are. Also, the PGA Tour granted releases for their members to play in Saudi Arabia, but only when the LIV tour was formed with events in the United States was there any real action taken.

16 minutes ago, jshots said:

The only real problem I have with LIV is the dumb format.

Well, others have other very real problems with LIV. And I am referring to more than just the source of funding.

[DeadMan]

5 hours ago, GolfLug said:

I'm curious though, as to why or how a more developed record could present a different light in which to view the claims assuming it means they might have more merit then.

As the case move forward, the LIV golfers will be able to get discovery, which means they'll get e-mails, documents, etc. from the PGA Tour. They'll also be able to depose PGA Tour people. Right now, all they have is their own e-mails, their own statements, etc. They'll hope to be able to get more evidence to support their claims through that process. 

Additionally, to get a TRO, they needed to show a likelihood of success on the merits. That's a fairly high bar. When it comes to trial, they'll only need to show through a preponderance (more than 50%) of the evidence that their claims will succeed. It's less of a bar than needed for the TRO.

That said, the judge is very skeptical of their claims. In front of this judge, it does seem like they are unlikely to win. Right now, they are probably exploring whether to voluntarily dismiss the case and file a slightly different version somewhere else.

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

As the case move forward, the LIV golfers will be able to get discovery, which means they'll get e-mails, documents, etc. from the PGA Tour. They'll also be able to depose PGA Tour people. Right now, all they have is their own e-mails, their own statements, etc. They'll hope to be able to get more evidence to support their claims through that process. 

They'll also continue to operate and grow. Heck, if they get Cam Smith, their "monopoly" argument takes a hit.

23 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

That said, the judge is very skeptical of their claims. In front of this judge, it does seem like they are unlikely to win. Right now, they are probably exploring whether to voluntarily dismiss the case and file a slightly different version somewhere else.

Which is probably not looked upon as "great" either. I'm not saying it's a big hit, but I imagine gaming the system like this aren't even viewed entirely neutrally.

[Golfingdad]

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Just a pack of lazy ex-competitors or non-winners who are taking the easy road of mediocre playing. A player can finish DFL in all 15 tournaments and gross over $1.8 mil. And that’s playing three round tournaments. LIV honestly thinks that’s a model for growing the game? Such a shame that Cam can be on possibly the height of his career and throw away that desire that got him on the PGA TOUR in the first place. It’s sports. Professional sports. We all understand someone’s wanting to make more money and do less. But when it come to professional sports, that’s seldom a winning model or a respected one. 

Bottom line is it’s the fans that have made these players wealthy. Sports produce nothing for people but entertainment. If it weren’t for our love of these games, it would be a hobby alone. Essentially these ass clowns are defecting and turning their backs on what/ who  made them able to even pursue this semi-retired, exhibition money grab. I have no respect for them. Not that it matters at all apparently.

Great post - highly stressing the bold part.