What Constitutes Slow Play?

[PSherrard01]

This is a discussion that I have with people at my club on which there is disagreement. My club posts on its scorecard that a foursome should play in under four hours and fifteen minutes. However, it also says that a team is out of position when it is not one shot behind the group in front of it. People in my club regularly complain about slow play and certain players playing slow (as I would imagine people in most clubs do). But how slow does a group have to be before being pegged as "playing slow"? Some groups play much faster than others (sometimes because the players in it are younger and move faster) and it makes it difficult for a group behind it to keep up with them (especially if they are requiring more shots to get around the golf course). If a group is a hole behind on the back nine but they are still on the "course pace" of 4:15, are they playing unreasonably slow? 

I guess the question is, should slow play be defined by position or by time? Obviously the position rule only applies when a group begins play immediately behind another group, but in club competitions that is normally the case. 

I argue that a group is slow only if they are behind the course pace defined by the time established by the golf course, but others disagree.

Thoughts? 

[sjduffers]

Given that I can play a round with nobody in front of me to slow me down in just about 2 hours walking (on a flat-ish course), I consider that having a hole open in front to be slow play, unless you are on pace for say 3.5 hours for a 4-some.  There is no reason (other than slow play) that a round should take 4 hours and 15 minutes. In many cases, it ends up being much more, because if you are on pace for 4h 15mns, all it takes is one bad hole by a couple of the players, looking for balls and whatnot, and voila, now you are over, by 5-10 minutes, easily, because there is no effort or ability to speed up to compensate.

Btw, IMHO, the PGA Tour gives a horrendous example for people to follow, with 2-somes playing in about 5 hours!

[StuM]

2 hours ago, PSherrard01 said:

If a group is a hole behind on the back nine but they are still on the "course pace" of 4:15, are they playing unreasonably slow? 

I think it is a little of both.  If you are a foursome and on pace based on the clock I have no problem.  It is very possible that the group ahead cold be a twosome with no one in front and it would be unreasonable to expect a foursome to keep up.  I know many say they play in 3 1/2 or less on 18 and that may be true if you are a low HC player but if you get 4 high capers there will be more shots and 4:15 should not be considered unreasonable, remember the game is supposed to be fun.  If you have 4 Bogey golfers they need to hit a total of 360 shots (90 x 4) in only 255 minutes.  For many of us this is a game, not a race.  Please note, I am not saying slow play is acceptable, you need to be ready to hit and not drag things out.

Edited March 13, 2021 by StuM
Added clarification that I am not promoting slow play.

[mcanadiens]

3 hours ago, PSherrard01 said:

However, it also says that a team is out of position when it is not one shot behind the group in front of it.

Having a blanket rule like that would seem tricky unless you have full tee sheets of foursomes every day. 

 

[Golfingdad]

Yeah, it’s both.  If you’re on the heels of the group in front of you then you’re fine no matter how fast or slow you’re going.

If you can’t keep up with them, then to me if you’re playing under 4 hour pace on a normal course in normal conditions then you are just fine.

Regardless, it’s still proper to stay aware.  If the group behind you is waiting for you even though you’re not slow, they’re obviously faster than you so let them on by.

[Club Rat]

I feel if the course if stacked up when tee intervals / groups tee off on the first hole in less than 8 minute intervals,
it will create a slow pace of play for the day on various sections of a course.

However, if any group fails to maintain with the pace and that group has the players following them by waiting every shot,
and Marshals are not present or not informing the slow group, then there's little hope for a good pace of play.

At a club level I'm sure there are typically members who are noted for playing slow and are usually the ones bitchin at the 
management often saying others are the slow groups... And they will never allow anyone play through...

 

[Double Mocha Man]

Slow play seems to be less of a clock based thing than an attitude thing.  If you are plodding along with no rear view mirror nor watching what's going on in front of you, but immersed in your own pace and selfishly not paying attention to those in front or behind of you then you are probably engaged in slow play. 

A lot of folks who infrequently come to the golf course are not aware that there is a pace you should try to comply with.  It's less about keeping up with the group in front of you than staying comfortably ahead of the group behind you.

We know you are having fun and enjoying yourselves but please don't do it at the expense of others. 

There is a social contract, implied among players on the course, that you should try to meet. Stay happy, keep everyone else happy.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Double Mocha Man

[StuM]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

If the group behind you is waiting for you even though you’re not slow, they’re obviously faster than you so let them on by.

Sometimes letting a group play through actually hurts pace of play as often I see people stop playing to let a group through.  All that does is create more of a log-jam behind.  I see no problem with letting a single or double play through but if you are letting a foursome play through then your group is the problem group.  Better you just pick up your ball and move ahead to get into position then play faster on the next holes.  Naturally if you know the course is empty behind then let them play through & enjoy, just do not be shocked if suddenly another group is on your tail.

[Golfingdad]

26 minutes ago, StuM said:

Sometimes letting a group play through actually hurts pace of play as often I see people stop playing to let a group through.  All that does is create more of a log-jam behind.  I see no problem with letting a single or double play through but if you are letting a foursome play through then your group is the problem group.  Better you just pick up your ball and move ahead to get into position then play faster on the next holes.  Naturally if you know the course is empty behind then let them play through & enjoy, just do not be shocked if suddenly another group is on your tail.

If more and more groups keep catching up to you then my qualifier of "even though you're not slow" isn't really apt.

[David in FL]

Anything slower than my group is too slow.  

[boogielicious]

10 hours ago, David in FL said:

Anything slower than my group is too slow.  

Anyone who drives faster than you iss a maniac! Anyone who drives slower than you is an idiot! - George Carlin

I agree slow play is more of an attitude. I like to play at pace, meaning we get to our ball and immediately get ready for our shot. The 40 second guideline then feels slow then.

[Billy Z]

Slow play can be solved, for the most part by 'ready golf', being ready to hit when it's your turn. It is somewhat of a skill set, and needs to be practiced. It is as necessary to the game as tempo is to a great golf swing. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Billy Z

[Double Mocha Man]

1 hour ago, Billy Z said:

...for the most part by 'ready golf', being ready to hit when it's your turn.

Don't even need to wait your turn when playing "ready golf" .  For some reason I'm almost always the first person to the next tee.  I step right up and hit. I only honor honors for an eagle or something less.

[dennyjones]

We only honor birdies or better.  Everything else is ready golf.   

I believe for me, if the flow is steady and continuous the pace is fine.   I've played courses here in Michigan where they say a good time is 4:30 and others that feel like 3 hours is long.    Pace of play can't be the same from course to course but a steady flow where you're not waiting on every shot is my preferred speed. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by dennyjones

[Rip62]

Not playing ready golf when there is a group right behind. Spending too much time looking for lost balls. Not playing in a tournament and looking over every put like if you make it, you win the Masters. Again if a group is right behind you.

[GREENMR003]

11 hours ago, Rip62 said:

Not playing ready golf when there is a group right behind. Spending too much time looking for lost balls. Not playing in a tournament and looking over every put like if you make it, you win the Masters. Again if a group is right behind you.

Slow play seems to be one of those "you know it when you see it" things, but I know I'm inconsistent in when I let it get to me.  Group in front of you can be keeping pace, but if it looks like they are screwing around it irritates the heck out of me.  Group ahead fishing for balls when you can see everything is stacked up = OK.  Fishing for balls but they are still on pace for <4hr round but it looks like they could be hitting = "Call the ranger and get these jokers moving!"

And of course I'm sure I'm guilty too.  If I'm walking 9 on an open course I can be done in 1:30 or less.  But I have had Sundays on the muni in a foursome that have taken 5hrs.  it doesn't feel like I'm doing much different, but 10-30 sec of conversation and distraction here and there really add up.  especially with 4 people and a few beverages involved.  

[SEMI_Duffer]

On 3/13/2021 at 4:27 PM, StuM said:

... but if you get 4 high capers there will be more shots and 4:15 should not be considered unreasonable, remember the game is supposed to be fun.  If you have 4 Bogey golfers they need to hit a total of 360 shots (90 x 4) in only 255 minutes.  For many of us this is a game, not a race.

Precisely.

TBH, I utterly fail to understand some players' hurry.  Ok, yeah: If somebody in front of you is blatantly wasting time I can see how that would be annoying--not unlike the people that occupy weight gear at the gym screwing-about with their phones.

The guys with whom I play are all high HC'ers.  We don't waste time.  We play ready golf, play simultaneously on the fairway when possible, and set up our putts while another is putting if we feel it won't disturb the guy who's up.  Individuals have even picked up their ball and moved on when we got beyond three strokes over par on a hole.  But higher HC means more strokes.

It takes us, on average, four to four-and-a-half hours to play 18.

If we find the group ahead of us more than one hole away, and there are people behind us, clearly waiting on us, we'll let 'em play through.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

TBH, I utterly fail to understand some players' hurry. 

Playing 18 holes in 3.5 hours is nowhere near a “hurry.”

Your 4.5 hour pace would be P-A-I-N-F-U-L to me, in a twosome, behind you. I played Southern Pines two weeks ago, waited on nearly every tee, and finished in 3.5 hours in a twosome. And we were competing. It felt slow. We had push carts, too, and that course isn’t flat.