Reasonable Driver Club Speed Formula to Aim for?

[Vinsk]

13 hours ago, billchao said:

My personal experience makes me an outlier. So does the data, unfortunately 😃

Lol. Well at least when you say personal experience, yours is backed by data of your play. The vast majority of players who deny what @klineka said simply ignore the data that supports it and don’t track what they believe refutes it.

[tourproto]

15 hours ago, klineka said:

"Bomb and Gouge" results in lower scores over the long term though. Driving distance is a much bigger separator between various levels of handicap than fairways hit.

 

But you wouldn't hit every single tee shot behind a tree if you hit it 20yds further though... What about the times where you'd hit the fairway with the faster swing and be 20yds further ahead?

This is a conversation for a different topic but I strongly encourage you to be more open minded and learn about what the facts and data say around distance vs accuracy and the benefits that speed can provide.

So I am an engineer and work for a company in the "big data analytics" space. I have worked the numbers and they don't work for me. 

Your supposition that B&G works for everyone is (probably) flawed, especially if you are using tour pros as your measuring stick. I am not going to get into a statistical argument with you, because your prior post tells me you have made up your mind on this. 

For me, I have tried it, and it doesn't work for me. I score worse (on average) when swinging out of my shoes off the tee. 

[ChetlovesMer]

5 hours ago, tourproto said:

For me, I have tried it, and it doesn't work for me. I score worse (on average) when swinging out of my shoes off the tee. 

If I may jump in here, as a person who is also an engineer. (Engineers rock! 👍😁👍) I think there's been a little confusion in what @klineka is suggesting. 
 

I may be speaking out of turn, but I believe @klineka is saying that increasing your swing speed will improve your game. I don't think he's suggesting you should "just swing harder" or "swing out of your shoes". Improving your swing speed is done through a series of exercises and/or stretches or other methods when you are off the course. That way when you can increase your baseline when you get back on the course. 

As an engineer, I'm sure you can appreciate as I do that the data clearly shows a correlation between people who can swing the club faster and people who score better. The suggestion is that if today you swing your club at a baseline of 103-105 and can crank it up to 109-110mph but at that point you start to lose directional control. The idea would be to get your baseline up to let's say 108-110 and not start to lose directional control until you reach 114-115mph. Those extra five miles per hour would add about 15 or maybe 20 yards of distance with equal directional control. 

So, I think if you think of it as raising your baseline, instead of thinking of it as swinging out of your shoes, it may give you a different perspective on speed training. Just a thought to consider. 

[GolfLug]

8 hours ago, tourproto said:

So I am an engineer and work for a company in the "big data analytics" space. I have worked the numbers and they don't work for me. 

Your supposition that B&G works for everyone is (probably) flawed, especially if you are using tour pros as your measuring stick. I am not going to get into a statistical argument with you, because your prior post tells me you have made up your mind on this. 

For me, I have tried it, and it doesn't work for me. I score worse (on average) when swinging out of my shoes off the tee. 

I suspect the answer is somewhere in the middle. While B&G sounds like it, it shouldn't necessarily mean white-knuckle it out of your shoes. In fact, it is a poor approach if one does not have mechanics to support it. Nothing ruins your round like two-three OBs a round. I get it. 

I believe there is a hundred-year narrative deep in our collective golf conscience that automatically conflates poor mechanics with a hard swing. I am now swinging as hard as I ever have and am scoring better. It's my own version of B&G swing with a back-breaking 93 mph. :-)).. And it is awesome in ever way.  

What I have learned is that dinking it for safety all day long is a guarantee of a ceiling one will never break too. To each their own and it works differently for everyone depending on their mechanics as you are saying, but I for one have to come to respect this fact that longish is tiny bit ever so better than straightish. 😊  

Edited June 27, 2023 by GolfLug

[saevel25]

8 hours ago, tourproto said:

Your supposition that B&G works for everyone is (probably) flawed, especially if you are using tour pros as your measuring stick. I am not going to get into a statistical argument with you, because your prior post tells me you have made up your mind on this. 

@klineka's first line was that distance has the biggest separation value between varies playing ability (high, mid, low, scratch and PGA Tour). So, he isn't using tour pro's as the measuring stick. This has been measured at all levels and found to be a really solid generalization.

8 hours ago, tourproto said:

For me, I have tried it, and it doesn't work for me. I score worse (on average) when swinging out of my shoes off the tee. 

That is not what he was talking about. 

[klineka]

8 hours ago, tourproto said:

Your supposition that B&G works for everyone is (probably) flawed, especially if you are using tour pros as your measuring stick. 

Don't make assumptions. Using amateurs as the measuring stick actually supports my claims even further as "Extra driving distance is worth more to high-scoring golfers than low scoring golfers"

 

8 hours ago, tourproto said:

I am not going to get into a statistical argument with you, because your prior post tells me you have made up your mind on this. 

I would love to hear statistics that support your side of the argument. 

Based on the facts and data that I have seen, yes my mind is made up at the moment. That doesn't mean that I won't change my mind if substantial data comes out against what I believe.

 

I have seen significantly more evidence showing the benefits of increasing driver clubhead speed and the importance of speed over accuracy than I have seen the other way around, so please present me some evidence showing that accuracy is a bigger separator than distance between various handicap levels.

 

 

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

If I may jump in here, as a person who is also an engineer. (Engineers rock! 👍😁👍) I think there's been a little confusion in what @klineka is suggesting. 
 

I may be speaking out of turn, but I believe @klineka is saying that increasing your swing speed will improve your game. I don't think he's suggesting you should "just swing harder" or "swing out of your shoes". Improving your swing speed is done through a series of exercises and/or stretches or other methods when you are off the course. That way when you can increase your baseline when you get back on the course. 

As an engineer, I'm sure you can appreciate as I do that the data clearly shows a correlation between people who can swing the club faster and people who score better. The suggestion is that if today you swing your club at a baseline of 103-105 and can crank it up to 109-110mph but at that point you start to lose directional control. The idea would be to get your baseline up to let's say 108-110 and not start to lose directional control until you reach 114-115mph. Those extra five miles per hour would add about 15 or maybe 20 yards of distance with equal directional control. 

So, I think if you think of it as raising your baseline, instead of thinking of it as swinging out of your shoes, it may give you a different perspective on speed training. Just a thought to consider. 

22 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I suspect the answer is somewhere in the middle. While B&G sounds like it, it shouldn't necessarily mean white-knuckle it out of your shoes. In fact, it is a poor approach if one does not have mechanics to support it. Nothing ruins your round like two-three OBs a round. I get it. 

I believe there is a hundred-year narrative deep in our collective golf conscience that automatically conflates poor mechanics with a hard swing. I am now swinging as hard as I ever have and am scoring better. It's my own version of B&G swing with a back-breaking 93 mph. :-)).. And it is awesome in ever way.  

What I have learned is that dinking it for safety all day long is a guarantee of a ceiling one will never break too. To each their own and it works differently for everyone depending on their mechanics as you are saying, but I for one have to come to respect this fact that longish is tiny bit ever so better than straightish. 😊  

6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

@klineka's first line was that distance has the biggest separation value between varies playing ability (high, mid, low, scratch and PGA Tour). So, he isn't using tour pro's as the measuring stick. This has been measured at all levels and found to be a really solid generalization.

That is not what he was talking about. 

 

Yep, yep, and yep. 

Driving distance has a bigger separation value across ALL handicap levels than accuracy does. That's a proven fact. 

Surely an engineer in the big data & analytics space should be willing to have an open mind when presented with data that goes against what they believe, right?

Until you can present facts/stats that support your position (other than "well it works for me") I don't have much of an interest in continuing this conversation.

[snapfade]

I've been reading this thread with some interest. However, the only stats that matter to me are mine. I try to keep it as simple as possible. I drive the ball in the 250 range (252 average) and that is what I feel like is 80%. I don't feel the need to hit it farther. Where I play and the tee's I play from that leaves me mid-short irons to the green on the 4's. The benefit to a faster swing speed/ more distance would be on the par 5's . Missing the green to the left regardless of club is in no way going to improve by increasing my swing speed. I can pull a SW just as easy as a 7 iron, all day. 🙂 

[StuM]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

I have seen significantly more evidence showing the benefits of increasing driver clubhead speed and the importance of speed over accuracy than I have seen the other way around, so please present me some evidence showing that accuracy is a bigger separator than distance between various handicap levels.

I think the "Speed/Distance" vs "Accuracy" is a balancing act.  If a high percentage of drives are really long but frequently in the woods or OB then I suspect going long would hurt. Alternatively, being long and only a few yards off the fairway or only rarely in the woods/OB would help a lot.

[klineka]

4 minutes ago, snapfade said:

I don't feel the need to hit it farther. 

Just because you don't feel the need to hit it farther doesn't mean that your scores wouldn't improve if you hit it farther. The data indicates that most people can benefit by hitting it farther.

 

5 minutes ago, snapfade said:

Where I play and the tee's I play from that leaves me mid-short irons to the green on the 4's. The benefit to a faster swing speed/ more distance would be on the par 5's . 

The part in bold isn't entirely accurate. You would see benefits to more speed on every single hole you play, par 3s and par 4s plus the par 5s. More speed means more distance which means you would be hitting a higher lofted club into every hole. Higher lofted club means it's more difficult for the ball to go offline, so your approach shots will, on average, be closer to the hole/your target when you are coming in with a higher lofted club. Higher lofted clubs have more spin and greater stopping power too, plus more speed will help you out of the rough too, easier to hit a PW out of the rough than a 7 iron.

 

9 minutes ago, snapfade said:

I can pull a SW just as easy as a 7 iron, all day. 🙂 

Your misses/your overall dispersion with a 7 iron are going to be bigger than they are with a SW. 

 

It's fine if you don't want to add speed and distance, but don't act like it wouldn't have benefits.

[ChetlovesMer]

14 minutes ago, snapfade said:

 I can pull a SW just as easy as a 7 iron, all day. 🙂 

Wow, I don't disagree with this statement, but I would have to assume that you (like every other golfer on the planet) have a better chance of hitting a target with a SW than with a 7 iron. 

Just looking at my shot scope data, I hit the green 33% of the time with a 7 iron and 61% of the time (nearly twice as often) with my SW. 

As you probably know GIR's are the closest correlation to score. 

3 hours ago, GolfLug said:

I believe there is a hundred-year narrative deep in our collective golf conscience that automatically conflates poor mechanics with a hard swing. I am now swinging as hard as I ever have and am scoring better. It's my own version of B&G swing with a back-breaking 93 mph. :-)).. And it is awesome in ever way.  

You are correct sir. 

[snapfade]

6 minutes ago, klineka said:

Just because you don't feel the need to hit it farther doesn't mean that your scores wouldn't improve if you hit it farther. The data indicates that most people can benefit by hitting it farther.

 

The part in bold isn't entirely accurate. You would see benefits to more speed on every single hole you play, par 3s and par 4s plus the par 5s. More speed means more distance which means you would be hitting a higher lofted club into every hole. Higher lofted club means it's more difficult for the ball to go offline, so your approach shots will, on average, be closer to the hole/your target when you are coming in with a higher lofted club. Higher lofted clubs have more spin and greater stopping power too, plus more speed will help you out of the rough too, easier to hit a PW out of the rough than a 7 iron.

 

Your misses/your overall dispersion with a 7 iron are going to be bigger than they are with a SW. 

 

It's fine if you don't want to add speed and distance, but don't act like it wouldn't have benefits.

The point of my reply is that distance isn't my problem right now, its accuracy.  My instructor isn't pushing me to hit the ball further, he's helping me with my alignment, If I miss a green its just off to the left a bit, then its down to a pitching and chipping.  My swing speed will naturally improve of course as I work on flexibility, shedding off excess weight, etc. I'm 55, 6ft and 220 pounds worth of high quality beer and the finest cuts of beef. I'm very happy with my 250 yard drives. 

 

7 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Wow, I don't disagree with this statement, but I would have to assume that you (like every other golfer on the planet) have a better chance of hitting a target with a SW than with a 7 iron. 

Just looking at my shot scope data, I hit the green 33% of the time with a 7 iron and 61% of the time (nearly twice as often) with my SW. 

As you probably know GIR's are the closest correlation to score. 

You are correct sir. 

My point is this. You need to be able to hit the green in regulation regardless of the club you are using.. That is what I am working on.  Sure you have less of a chance yanking a shot off line with a higher lofted club I get that, but I want to be accurate with whatever club I use. I don't want to be afraid of the 4 or 5 iron.  

[ChetlovesMer]

10 minutes ago, snapfade said:

The point of my reply is that distance isn't my problem right now, its accuracy.  My instructor isn't pushing me to hit the ball further, he's helping me with my alignment, If I miss a green its just off to the left a bit, then its down to a pitching and chipping.  My swing speed will naturally improve of course as I work on flexibility, shedding off excess weight, etc. I'm 55, 6ft and 220 pounds worth of high quality beer and the finest cuts of beef. I'm very happy with my 250 yard drives. 

My point is this. You need to be able to hit the green in regulation regardless of the club you are using.. That is what I am working on.  Sure you have less of a chance yanking a shot off line with a higher lofted club I get that, but I want to be accurate with whatever club I use. I don't want to be afraid of the 4 or 5 iron.  

Cool. We are all working on something. 

Are you keeping stats? Something like ShotScope or Arccos or similar products? I'm a similar age, height and driver distance (about 250 yards). I like to keep stats, because I'm working hard to keep the distance I have over the next decade or so. 

But more to your point, like you, I'm not working on swing speed right now. But I will work on it in the off-season. It's hard to find time to work on everything. We all have to prioritize. 👍😁👍

[klineka]

13 minutes ago, snapfade said:

The point of my reply is that distance isn't my problem right now, its accuracy.  My instructor isn't pushing me to hit the ball further, he's helping me with my alignment.

I'm not saying distance is your problem, but having more distance/speed is almost guaranteed to help you/improve your scores.

It's fine if you don't want to work on speed and distance, but just because your instructor isnt focusing on that with you doesnt mean you wouldnt see benefits from it.

 

16 minutes ago, snapfade said:

I'm very happy with my 250 yard drives.   

Wouldn't you be happier with 270 yard drives while continuing to improve your accuracy though?

 

17 minutes ago, snapfade said:

Sure you have less of a chance yanking a shot off line with a higher lofted club I get that, but I want to be accurate with whatever club I use. I don't want to be afraid of the 4 or 5 iron.  

So if you admit that your higher lofted clubs go less offline, why wouldn't you want to get your game to a spot where you use those as often as possible?

Like sure it's fine to not want to be afraid of hitting a 4 or 5 iron but no matter how accurate you get with those, your wedges are still going to be significantly more accurate than a long/mid iron so why not work on improving accuracy and speed at the same time?

[StuM]

As for the "Formula", would adding players on the Senior's tour to the statistical pool help fine tune how much weight to give to "Age Adjustment"?  Looking only at PGA Tour players you are going to get a significant number of players under 50 and trust me, as a guy who is 61, things change with age.  

I'm not saying older players can't benefit form higher clubhead speed, just that the "Potential" may be lower on average for older golfers.

[TourSpoon]

My formula came out to 111 and at my last driver fitting I was averaging 104 with a few swings topping out at 106. I am working on getting to 108 and being well into my 50s I would love 111, but it would take a minute. 

[snapfade]

57 minutes ago, klineka said:

I'm not saying distance is your problem, but having more distance/speed is almost guaranteed to help you/improve your scores.

It's fine if you don't want to work on speed and distance, but just because your instructor isnt focusing on that with you doesnt mean you wouldnt see benefits from it.

 

Wouldn't you be happier with 270 yard drives while continuing to improve your accuracy though?

 

So if you admit that your higher lofted clubs go less offline, why wouldn't you want to get your game to a spot where you use those as often as possible?

Like sure it's fine to not want to be afraid of hitting a 4 or 5 iron but no matter how accurate you get with those, your wedges are still going to be significantly more accurate than a long/mid iron so why not work on improving accuracy and speed at the same time?

All of this back and forth is appreciated. I will buy a Shot Scope here in a few minutes. I think you both had that in mind from the start, "put the squeeze on him to but a shot tracker" Lol Someone posted it "prioritize" and thats what I am doing.  

[StuM]

8 minutes ago, TourSpoon said:

but it would take a minute. 

No, it would take only a second, give or take a fraction of a second.

Edited June 27, 2023 by StuM
Corrected spelling of "second"

[GolfLug]

3 hours ago, snapfade said:

I can pull a SW just as easy as a 7 iron, all day. 🙂 

I mean if you are pulling your SW then you done bro.. 😁. Ain't none else to do but pray it rains and the 19th hole is still open....