Relative Importance of Driving/Approach Shots, Short Game, Putting, etc. (LSW, Mark Broadie, Strokes Gained, etc.)

[RFKFREAK]

I played 180 rounds the previous year... We had a baby last April so I had to calm down a bit, thus only the 100 rounds :) I'll try to improve this year, don't worry.

Shoot, I'd love to be able to get 80 rounds in.  Last year I don't even think I got to 30.

[Jakester23]

The only problem with your scenario is you said player C hits green with 4 iron from 210.I dont care how long a hitter he is.210 is still long way to a green to say itll be putting.Probably more than likely hell be in that same bunker your in or somewhere else around green.That goes back to what i said that short game trumps everything because thats what actually puts ball in the hole.

How does short game trump everything if it takes 3 or 4 shot to get to the green? EDIT: responding to this post http://thesandtrap.com/t/78188/is-distance-really-that-important-for-amateurs/846#post_1093278

[Aflighter]

How does short game trump everything if it takes 3 or 4 shot to get to the green?

If its taking you 3 or 4 shots to get to green or around green then you got alot more problems than hitting ball long.Thats where hitting it straight and actually striking the ball decent get you near the green.How does distance or even accuracy become more important if your 3 putting or cant chip ball?I understand the short game not meaning much if your gonna hit most the greens but how many golfers are going to hit more than 10 greens in regulation,heck even the pros hit only 80% if that.Ive always said you can either figure a way to hit most of the greens or get your short game good and im pretty sure itll be easier to develop a good short game compared to having to hit 14 greens.

[Jakester23]

If its taking you 3 or 4 shots to get to green or around green then you got alot more problems than hitting ball long.Thats where hitting it straight and actually striking the ball decent get you near the green.How does distance or even accuracy become more important if your 3 putting or cant chip ball?I understand the short game not meaning much if your gonna hit most the greens but how many golfers are going to hit more than 10 greens in regulation,heck even the pros hit only 80% if that.Ive always said you can either figure a way to hit most of the greens or get your short game good and im pretty sure itll be easier to develop a good short game compared to having to hit 14 greens.

Short game is easy to learn.  Heck Id be wiling to bet Erik could take someone who's never played golf in their life and teach them aimpoint and decent fundamentals and they would be a decent putter in a weekend.  Chipping around the green is only slightly harder than putting.  Id make the same wager that Erik could teach someone chipping in a weekend as well.  The long game is what separates 20 cappers from 10, 10 from scratch and scratch from pros.

[Dave2512]

I wouldn't go as far to say chipping is easy but it's easier than hitting it from further away and the mishit penalty less severe. The putting data is out there and people should look at it. As the ball gets closer to the hole it becomes less important, the difference between a great putter and a horrible putter isn't huge. Even from 15 feet or so the difference is something like .5 strokes, can't remember exactly. Still comes down to putting it close to the hole and the best way to do that is be closer to the green.

[Jakester23]

I wouldn't go as far to say chipping is easy but it's easier than hitting it from further away and the mishit penalty less severe. The putting data is out there and people should look at it. As the ball gets closer to the hole it becomes less important, the difference between a great putter and a horrible putter isn't huge. Even from 15 feet or so the difference is something like .5 strokes, can't remember exactly. Still comes down to putting it close to the hole and the best way to do that is be closer to the green.

I don't think chipping is easy but I don't think its much more then technique and practice.  If someone teaches you the proper way to hit the shot its just a matter of working on it.  I learned the pitch shot Erik teaches in a few hours in my yard.  It took me longer to get decent at it (not that Im really good at it) but its not overly hard to learn.

[iacas]

If its taking you 3 or 4 shots to get to green or around green then you got alot more problems than hitting ball long.Thats where hitting it straight and actually striking the ball decent get you near the green.How does distance or even accuracy become more important if your 3 putting or cant chip ball?I understand the short game not meaning much if your gonna hit most the greens but how many golfers are going to hit more than 10 greens in regulation,heck even the pros hit only 80% if that.Ive always said you can either figure a way to hit most of the greens or get your short game good and im pretty sure itll be easier to develop a good short game compared to having to hit 14 greens.

You're missing the point.

Yes, the fastest way to reduce your scores in the short term is to improve your short game.

But… PGA Tour pros are NEAR every green in regulation, basically, and yet many amateurs are not only not ON many GIRs, they're not even NEAR many greens in regulation. They're hitting their driver OB now and then, they're topping the ball, they're slicing into places that require pitch-outs sideways, etc.

A guy who shoots 90 will out-putt a PGA Tour pro 10% of the time. He'll never ever ever out-drive him with any regularity (i.e. give them each 30 balls and average the results, similar to how it would be in putting).

[billchao]

But… PGA Tour pros are NEAR every green in regulation, basically, and yet many amateurs are not only not ON many GIRs, they're not even NEAR many greens in regulation. They're hitting their driver OB now and then, they're topping the ball, they're slicing into places that require pitch-outs sideways, etc.

Why do you always have to talk about my game like that?

But seriously @Aflighter , I have a good short game for my handicap, but the errant long shots absolutely kill my score. No point in being good at putting or chipping if it takes too many strokes to get around the green in the first place.

[DrvFrShow]

Absolutely. Errant long shots cost me about 15 strokes per round.

[Aflighter]

Why do you always have to talk about my game like that?

But seriously @Aflighter, I have a good short game for my handicap, but the errant long shots absolutely kill my score. No point in being good at putting or chipping if it takes too many strokes to get around the green in the first place.

Sorry Bill,i guess im talking about my case mainly and i guess i make mistake of thinking most are in my position.I say short game is so important because id say 90% of the time im atleast near the green less than 15 yards or so away and thats why im saying short game is so important because thats where all my added strokes come from.

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="billchao" url="/t/14930/relative-importance-of-the-long-game-short-game-etc-mark-broadie-strokes-gained-etc/522#post_1093444"]   Why do you always have to talk about my game like that? :cry: But seriously @Aflighter , I have a good short game for my handicap, but the errant long shots absolutely kill my score. No point in being good at putting or chipping if it takes too many strokes to get around the green in the first place. [/QUOTE] Sorry Bill,i guess im talking about my case mainly and i guess i make mistake of thinking most are in my position.I say short game is so important because id say say 90% of the time im atleast near the green less than 15 yards or so away thats why im saying short game is so important because thats where all my added strokes come from.

This was the case for me until I added 20 yards to all my clubs last week. :-D At this point, I probably need to bite e bullet and start ranging all my shots until I get used to the new distances. The other changes are my pitching and my putting strokes.

[JonMA1]

I think the mechanics of learning the short game are relatively easy but it takes experience to know where to land it. For example, I might be able to pick a spot on the green and hit that spot but it often ends up being a poor choice and the difference between a 1putt and a 2putt.

I just think gaining knowledge of how to read greens along with how to control roll is the trick to the short game.

[Lihu]

I think the mechanics of learning the short game are relatively easy but it takes experience to know where to land it. For example, I might be able to pick a spot on the green and hit that spot but it often ends up being a poor choice and the difference between a 1putt and a 2putt. I just think gaining knowledge of how to read greens along with how to control roll is the trick to the short game.

Yeah, when you do it with proper mechanics it feels really easy and efficient. Even on well executed shots it still takes time and experience to learn the feel for the distances and gauging distance with short game shots/putts. Anyone who claims to be able to shoot 2 or more strokes lower from the get go is either really talented or exaggerating a bit?

[Tat14]

Pardon me for only skimming the previous 535 posts, this may be redundant.

I'm shilling LSW here - long game is key. The SV4 list reflects that driving and approach shots are the biggest difference between good and poor play.

Considering my own game, I waste shots when I miss nGIR or GIR. That (or a poor drive) puts pressure on anyone's short game, thus having a solid long game is a more important foundation IMO.

In other words, having to chip in or one-putt for bogey ain't no way to live.

[JonMA1]

Pardon me for only skimming the previous 535 posts, this may be redundant.

I'm shilling LSW here - long game is key. The SV4 list reflects that driving and approach shots are the biggest difference between good and poor play.

Considering my own game, I waste shots when I miss nGIR or GIR. That (or a poor drive) puts pressure on anyone's short game, thus having a solid long game is a more important foundation IMO.

In other words, having to chip in or one-putt for bogey ain't no way to live.

Agreed. The game just isn't fun when I'm not only failing to get a nGIR but I'm not even on the green in par. That generally doesn't happen due to poor chip shots.

[billchao]

Sorry Bill,i guess im talking about my case mainly and i guess i make mistake of thinking most are in my position.I say short game is so important because id say 90% of the time im atleast near the green less than 15 yards or so away and thats why im saying short game is so important because thats where all my added strokes come from.

That's all well and fine, but you can't just take your point of view and go around telling people that the short game is more important based on that. The stats and analysis prove otherwise. [quote name="Lihu" url="/t/14930/relative-importance-of-the-long-game-short-game-etc-mark-broadie-strokes-gained-etc/510#post_1093612"] Yeah, when you do it with proper mechanics it feels really easy and efficient. Even on well executed shots it still takes time and experience to learn the feel for the distances and gauging distance with short game shots/putts. Anyone who claims to be able to shoot 2 or more strokes lower from the get go is either really talented or exaggerating a bit?[/quote]You'd be surprised. With better technique, you're going to save strokes simply from not blading pitches and chunking them to begin with. The rest is no different than learning distance control with any other short game shot.

[mvmac]

Sorry Bill,i guess im talking about my case mainly and i guess i make mistake of thinking most are in my position.I say short game is so important because id say 90% of the time im atleast near the green less than 15 yards or so away and thats why im saying short game is so important because thats where all my added strokes come from.

Yes you can't discount how important being on or near the greens 90% of the time is. It basically means that most of the time you are either making a par or bogey, reason you're a 8/9 handicap. Rather than thinking that your short game is adding strokes to your game, try to see how your long game is saving you shots. Your ball striking is taking the big numbers out of play and giving you opportunities for pars and some birdies. Players with higher handicaps than yours will typically be worse with their GIR and near GIR performance and players that are lower than you will be better ball strikers.

If you had a tournament coming up in a week then it would make sense for you to focus on your short game but if you wanted to get down to a 5, then you need to improve your ball striking, hit more GIR.

[JonMA1]

You'd be surprised. With better technique, you're going to save strokes simply from not blading pitches and chunking them to begin with. The rest is no different than learning distance control with any other short game shot.

Is it a fair statement to say that learning better technique with almost any short game shot is easier than learning a proper full swing? Plus, if you blade a chip that will cost you a shot where a blown full swing may cost 2.