Relative Importance of Driving/Approach Shots, Short Game, Putting, etc. (LSW, Mark Broadie, Strokes Gained, etc.)

[mvmac]

Long game is definitely 200yds plus....

Intermediate game is down to 150.......short game is under 150...just throwing that out there......not to be confused with scrambling.

Well that's your opinion.  For the purposes of this thread and discussion, it's not.  If you haven't please read these articles

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2009/06/moneygolf.single.html

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/moneygolf/2010/08/bad_lies.html (there are a series of these)

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/jason-sobel/molinari-leading-charge-for-statistical-analysis-long-trumps-short-game/

[BuckeyeNut]

How anyone can view standing in a fairway with 135yds to the pin with a wedge in their hand........and calling this a long game shot is ridiculous.

[billchao]

How anyone can view standing in a fairway with 135yds to the pin with a wedge in their hand........and calling this a long game shot is ridiculous.

It's not so much an issue about distance, but swing mechanics. If it takes you a full swing with that wedge to hit 135, by definition it's a long game shot. I suppose if you're standing with a 3i in your hand and looking to bump and run it, you can call it a short game shot, maybe? How far you can hit the ball is irrelevant. Any swing that uses full swing mechanics is being defined as the long game for discussion purposes.

[iacas]

How anyone can view standing in a fairway with 135yds to the pin with a wedge in their hand........and calling this a long game shot is ridiculous.

I asked you to read the thread. You have not done so. That's disappointing.

Shots outside of 100 yards are "long game" shots.

[ghalfaire]

I still believe if you are going to play at a high level, scratch or better, then you need to be able to play both the long and short game.  If either leaves you, you are going to have problems scoring well.  I suspect this is true for double digit handicap players also, just a matter of what is good or not (what you see depends upon where you stand).  So having said that and to clarify early posts, I know for me personally I have to spend more time practicing the long game, driver in particular, to play well.  That is because the longer the club is the more accurate azimuth angle you have have to hit your target and probably the travel distance variation from well stuck to poorly stuck is greater than with a short club. So if we're talking about where to spend our practice time I'd agree that the long game deserves more time to achieve your best game.  But to achieve your best scores, whatever those are, you'll need both a long and short game.

My personal experiences have been that I can't remember ever achieving one of my best scores without having my A game short game.  But I can remember some good, but not best, scores when I wasn't sharp off the tee or with the longer clubs.  So my propensity is to, for me, beileve my short game is more important but, again for me, seems to not require as much time to maintain.

[purple drank]

I asked you to read the thread. You have not done so. That's disappointing. Shots outside of 100 yards are "long game" shots.

^^^ Correct^^^ anything around the green would be short game.

[purple drank]

:-)

[iacas]

I still believe if you are going to play at a high level, scratch or better, then you need to be able to play both the long and short game.

You keep saying that as if people are arguing with you about that. They're both important. Long game is more so, but absolutely zero people have said you can be a scratch golfer (or better) with no short game.

That is because the longer the club is the more accurate azimuth angle you have have to hit your target and probably the travel distance variation from well stuck to poorly stuck is greater than with a short club. So if we're talking about where to spend our practice time I'd agree that the long game deserves more time to achieve your best game.  But to achieve your best scores, whatever those are, you'll need both a long and short game.

Good. We almost all agree, and again, nobody's arguing your last point.

[Lihu]

Long game is definitely 200yds plus....

Intermediate game is down to 150.......short game is under 150...just throwing that out there......not to be confused with scrambling.

I was also thinking that we were missing the intermediate game, but we (or at least I) use a full swing on the approach.

The 65/25/10 thread kind of defined the distinction of long(65)/short(25)/putting(10) for many of us.

[ghalfaire]

You keep saying that as if people are arguing with you about that. They're both important. Long game is more so, but absolutely zero people have said you can be a scratch golfer (or better) with no short game.

Good. We almost all agree, and again, nobody's arguing your last point.

All I was trying to say is that because one part of the game requires more practice that in and of itself doesn't make it most important.  But you're correct that I probably over stated the point.  My grand daughter accuses me of "lecturing" and I think she's correct.  So I'll quit as one should when one has made the point once.  But I'll keep reading as a lot of interesting point on this thread.

[mvmac]

All I was trying to say is that because one part of the game requires more practice that in and of itself doesn't make it most important.

Correct, there's more to it.  It's more important because improving your long game gives you a better chance at shooting lower scores.  Check out this post about the strokes Rory and Tiger gained on the field because of their solid ballstriking

http://thesandtrap.com/t/58816/65-25-10-practice-ratios-where-to-devote-your-practice-time/180#post_793236

[newtogolf]

Jim McLean was on PGA Tour radio this morning and was asked this exact question as well as percentage breakdown for practice purposes between long game, short game and putting.  He didn't provide a breakdown on practice time, but he was pretty emphatic that the short game was most important to reduce strokes and improve scoring.

It's frustrating for new or mid-capper golfers when you have renown authors and instructors out there that can't seem to agree on some very basic principles of the game.  I personally trust the 5SK guys more but for those that aren't as familiar with this site or just stumbled upon it and read this thread after hearing McLean on the radio today, their heads must be spinning.

[Mr. Desmond]

Jim McLean was on PGA Tour radio this morning and was asked this exact question as well as percentage breakdown for practice purposes between long game, short game and putting.  He didn't provide a breakdown on practice time, but he was pretty emphatic that the short game was most important to reduce strokes and improve scoring.

It's frustrating for new or mid-capper golfers when you have renown authors and instructors out there that can't seem to agree on some very basic principles of the game.  I personally trust the 5SK guys more but for those that aren't as familiar with this site or just stumbled upon it and read this thread after hearing McLean on the radio today, their heads must be spinning.

It's a short term versus long term thing, and people like McLean should know how to couch their answers in better terms.

He's probably thinking, heck, for the average player, they'll never have a good long game, so they better practice the short game. That's not new - you hear that all the time from the so-called gurus because they assume the average golfer is "limited".

[newtogolf]

It's a short term versus long term thing, and people like McLean should know how to couch their answers in better terms.

He's probably thinking, heck, for the average player, they'll never have a good long game, so they better practice the short game. That's not new - you hear that all the time from the so-called gurus because they assume the average golfer is "limited".

If he qualified the answer like you just did, I'd buy it but he didn't.  Instead, he then jumped into a long diatribe on how his instructors teach the proper techniques for pitching, chipping and putting that could significantly reduce ones score.

[Lowkie]

As a newer golfer to the game, and having read lots of the instruction books, watched hours of video's, and heard too many tips and tricks from friends to count, I agree with McLean.  So you can drive a par 4 (I know it's an exaggeration) but so what.  If you can't putt, chip, or pitch you might still bogey or double bogey the hole.  From what I've seen you see more of your "faults" on the short game.  What I mean is that the target is smaller, so the minor mistakes may make us miss the shot, when on longer shots we'd just be a few feet off where we really wanted to be but still in good position. That's not to say I don't think that long game should be practiced (I know I sure do!) but more time really should be spent on the short game and perfecting that.  Again just my opinion as a newer golfer.  Also this is what I've heard pretty much across the board since I started.

[mvmac]

Jim McLean was on PGA Tour radio this morning and was asked this exact question as well as percentage breakdown for practice purposes between long game, short game and putting.  He didn't provide a breakdown on practice time, but he was pretty emphatic that the short game was most important to reduce strokes and improve scoring.

It's frustrating for new or mid-capper golfers when you have renown authors and instructors out there that can't seem to agree on some very basic principles of the game.  I personally trust the 5SK guys more but for those that aren't as familiar with this site or just stumbled upon it and read this thread after hearing McLean on the radio today, their heads must be spinning.

Well if we disagree with McLean then we're definitely right

As a newer golfer to the game, and having read lots of the instruction books, watched hours of video's, and heard too many tips and tricks from friends to count, I agree with McLean.  So you can drive a par 4 (I know it's an exaggeration) but so what.  If you can't putt, chip, or pitch you might still bogey or double bogey the hole.  From what I've seen you see more of your "faults" on the short game.  What I mean is that the target is smaller, so the minor mistakes may make us miss the shot, when on longer shots we'd just be a few feet off where we really wanted to be but still in good position. That's not to say I don't think that long game should be practiced (I know I sure do!) but more time really should be spent on the short game and perfecting that.  Again just my opinion as a newer golfer.  Also this is what I've heard pretty much across the board since I started.

If in the long game you are only "a few feet off" then you have a strong long game.  That's not common amongst most golfers.  A good short game doesn't do much if your pitch or chip is your fourth or fifth shot on the hole.  I have a feeling you haven't read most of the thread, I would suggest going back a few pages and reading more.

[Golfingdad]

As a newer golfer to the game, and having read lots of the instruction books, watched hours of video's, and heard too many tips and tricks from friends to count, I agree with McLean.  So you can drive a par 4 (I know it's an exaggeration) but so what.  If you can't putt, chip, or pitch you might still bogey or double bogey the hole.  From what I've seen you see more of your "faults" on the short game.  What I mean is that the target is smaller, so the minor mistakes may make us miss the shot, when on longer shots we'd just be a few feet off where we really wanted to be but still in good position. That's not to say I don't think that long game should be practiced (I know I sure do!) but more time really should be spent on the short game and perfecting that.  Again just my opinion as a newer golfer.  Also this is what I've heard pretty much across the board since I started.

Spend more time on this site then. Read up on what the 5sk guys say and give it a chance and I think you'll find it makes a whole heck of a lot of sense. The short game is just way too easy (RELATIVELY) to be spending more time practicing it than practicing your full swing. And one more reminder: Long game doesn't mean gaining power so you can "drive a par 4," it just means your full swing. It's a fact that people, by and large, lose more shots to putting themselves in bad spots off the tee (including OB and hazards, but sometimes trees, or simply rough) than they do from a chili dipped chip or a three putt.

[Lowkie]

Spend more time on this site then. Read up on what the 5sk guys say and give it a chance and I think you'll find it makes a whole heck of a lot of sense. The short game is just way too easy (RELATIVELY) to be spending more time practicing it than practicing your full swing. And one more reminder: Long game doesn't mean gaining power so you can "drive a par 4," it just means your full swing. It's a fact that people, by and large, lose more shots to putting themselves in bad spots off the tee (including OB and hazards, but sometimes trees, or simply rough) than they do from a chili dipped chip or a three putt.

I would tend to agree with thtat train of thought that yes when putting and chipping you have a lot less of a chance that you'll loose a ball OB or something like that.  Although, as funny as it sounds, I have actually seen someone chip OB by accident.

If in the long game you are only "a few feet off" then you have a strong long game.  That's not common amongst most golfers.  A good short game doesn't do much if your pitch or chip is your fourth or fifth shot on the hole.  I have a feeling you haven't read most of the thread, I would suggest going back a few pages and reading more.

First off no I haven't read through the thread I kind of jumped in it because I'd recently had a similar discussion with a friend.  When I say a "few feet" for me that's bee maybe 10-15 feet off my mark of where I am, which is typical for me.  However that could also be the reason that I'm constantly told to work on my short game.  I will admit that I have a very bad short game and have had several 4-5 putts or had to chip 2-3 times because I undershoot or overshoot the green.  I'm getting it though lol