20+ handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

[Righty to Lefty]

Wow I figured that once I sent out evidence of actually accomplishing the feat of AVERAGING 300 plus yards per pass that it would at least be read but I guess not. I keep reading these posts about people who say that they can hit one 3 bills but they usually hit it about 260.   Well if that's the case then at that swingspeed you can NEVER average 300 yards and you get lucky once and it rolls out.  I was gifted enough to have a swingspeed that allowed me to easily cover that distance and I didn't have to press at all to throw it out there because I played baseball and know that power comes from swinging quickly and not swinging hard because swinging hard is slow. And to the contrary when I switched from "Righty to Lefty" the most accurate club in my bag was the driver.  I hit a bunch of fairways and still had a poor round because golf is way more than drivin it long.  The fact is that most people aren't gifted with a high enough swingspeed to even be capable of averaging 300 off the tee. At my swingspeed I could really catch one and get 330 out of it or i could even miss one and it would roll out to 300 so I didn't have to catch it cleanly everytime either.

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

Well I was the exception to the rule for a lil while then but my story is a lil different than most.  I played high level baseball and batted from the left side where I generated tremendous batspeed and hit my fair share of baseballs out of the park and over the lights.  However when I started playing golf I played right handed because I was terrible left handed initially and I didn't want to ruin my baseball swing.

I played for a few years and became a pretty reliable 7 handicap.  My swingspeed with the driver was 106 right handed and I was good for a dead staight 255-265 off the tee, until I injured my wrist so badly that I couldn't hold onto the club through impact.  I was left with a dilema: Either give up golf for good, or play left handed, since I didn't have a baseball swing to ruin anymore cause I no longer played.  I chose to go lefty.

The club pros thought I was crazy as they watched me suffer trying to make half decent contact with and iron for a couple weeks.  One club that I didn't stuggle with was the driver which for some reason was point and click from the beginning and I have no idea why. The pro walked by and I had a driver out and he saw me swing it and he stopped in his tracks and said " are you effin serious....we gotta get you on a launch monitor!"  I hit 50 drivers for them and my new swingspeed was 123 mph and my AVERAGE distance per pass was 315 with a good pass in the 330 range. This is verified by 3 club pros who were watchin the launch monitor and then played with me on the course ( Sahara Golf and Country Club in Kuwait which is at sealevel.)

Now then the only dilema was that with the driver it was just let it fly....but irons and short game were a whole different animal.  Since I had played baseball there was no sense of touch or feel in my game whatsoever. So for the next month or two I would drop bombs down the fairway, or in the greenside bunker on the three short par 4's and then take a six because I couldn't even get a wedge near the green or out of the bunker.  Mind you I still putt right handed but I couldn't even get to that part cause I hadn't developed any touch and I couldn't believe that where I used to hit a 7 iron from 150 yards that now it was a pitching wedge and so I was overclubbing and hitting balls into trouble.

The club pro assigned me a 36 handicap because me changing over to lefty meant that I was seen as a brand new golfer to the club even though I had played to single digits right handed. My first rounds left handed where atrocious (110 plus) because I had no coordination with irons or distance control. Just because I had the mind of a single digit handicap doesn't mean that it translated over easily because I had to retrain everything.  In all fairness I went from a 36 handicap to a 6 in about 6 months because I practiced  for hours on end and developed a short game and feel with the irons. I was miserable in bunker for about a month until I just got in there one day and said that I wasn't leavin until I got 10 in a row SIMPLY OUT of the bunker no matter where they went.  I finally left the club 4 hours later drenched in sweat but that's what it took!

BUT FOR THE TIME WHEN I WAS A HIGH HANDICAP I AVERAGED 300 YARDS PER PASS WITH THE DRIVER AND IT WAS WITNESSED BY MULTIPLE PROS.

I can attest with 100% certainty that hitting your driver far has very little bearing on how well you play the game on the whole or your understanding of it. If you never develop a reasonable short game you will NEVER be a good golfer. Distance is only benefical if your short game can get you out of the trouble that your distance will put you in.

[carpediem4300]

This, pretty much how i describe my game,

my 300+'s are luckey,

I did once drive (i use the term loosely) 435yards on a par 5,...................unfortunately its was downhill, height of summer, and caught a lucky bounce over the ridge of the hill and continued to bounce down towards the green,

i thought it was awesome, but alas, cannot attain to having actually driven it as technically i didnt,...the course and conditions pretty much made it for me

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

I keep reading these posts about people who say that they can hit one 3 bills but they usually hit it about 260.   Well if that's the case then at that swingspeed you can NEVER average 300 yards and you get lucky once and it rolls out.

[NutmegGolfer]

Originally Posted by DonkeyShark

Smells like sour grapes to me...

If you want to argue that it takes more skill to hit the clubs of yesteryear, then of course we all agree with you. However, translating that into the implication that hitting modern equipment is tantamount to cheating is an egregious misclassification.

Well, I did say that I knew I was touching upon a sensitive area !

I only offered up the truth...nothing more, nothing less...

The modern drivers have huge grapefruit sized club heads placed at the end of longer shafts that make it possible to hit the ball very long distances. I pointed out the fact that there is no longer any trade-off involved with "finding" the ball with increased shaft length when the clubhead is 400-460cc.

I then stated that "I believed" it was not in the spirit of the game especially for professionals or serious amateurs. (My personal opinion)

Never did I state or mean to imply that everyone who used modern drivers were cheating.

I was merely trying to "draw back the curtain" and reveal the fact that the longer shafts are increasing the drive lengths, and the big bubble at the end of the longer shafts makes it possible to at least hit the ball.

In summary, the only person who was "translating" into egregious misclassifications was...you

Originally Posted by Wallstreet

I agree.  To be honest the only line drawn is where the USGA draws it.  There is no point to argue about the line.  If the USGA says you can use it....use it.  I don't really like when people talk about the "spirit" of the game.  Technology and innovation evolve over time for any sport.  It only makes it better and more enjoyable for the average amateur.  I guarantee there would be no a lot less golfers playing today if we still used 42" persimmon insert drivers.  New innovation has made it easier for beginners to come out and actually enjoy the game.  One of the best feelings for a beginner golfer is to wack one 250+ off the tee.  I think its just good for golf.

My point is every sport has had new innovation and technology to better the game.  Would you say receivers in the NFL using gloves that act like glue to catch the ball is against the "Spirit of the game"?  probably not.

Once again, I was merely trying to point out why some very average golfers are able to hit some insanely far drives today. That is what this thread is all about.

Yes, you are correct when you point out that these innovations are making golf more enjoyable for the average amateur.

My point is that doubling the average size of the driver club head from 190-200cc to about 400-460cc is not so much an "innovation" but more like a "transformation". My opinion is that, yes, it makes the game more enjoyable for the average players out there, but for the serious amateurs and professionals it's not in the spirit of the game. When I see the NFL receivers using gloves that effectively "double" the size of their hands, then yes, I will feel it is against the spirit of the game.

[saevel25]

Its not the driver, but the golf ball. The golf ball has gotten out of hand, notice as well that average pro driving distance hasn't really changed much over the past decade. Really its the mishits that go longer.

[NutmegGolfer]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Well... my home course is Terra Lago (formerly Landmark)... it was home to the Skins Game and opened in 1999 if I remember correctly... next on my list of courses I play a lot is SilverRock resort which opened in 2005.  The course I played today, The Golf Club at La Quina (formerly Trilogy at La Quinta, and the home to the Skins Game after Landmark) was also built in the 2000s (I think it was 2002).

My question to you is, if I'm playing new course that was built with today's clubs in mind can I use a new driver?  What about if it is an older course that has been redesigned or lengthened?

Look... using new clubs isn't agains the spirit of the game... I'm curious where you draw the line... do you only use blades and if so how old... Are today's that much more advanced over a model from the '60s or '70s, or are those still too new?

Well, first of all, congratulations on being privileged or lucky enough to live by and play on such distinguished new courses that have had the honor of hosting such great events as Skins Games.

That being said... do you really think my post was meant for you?

I said my bet was most of us are probably playing courses that were built by 1960 or so. (I really should have said 1990)

The newer courses you are playing on probably do have longer layouts that accommodate the longer driver shafts of today.

Play whatever driver you want. Where in my post did I ever say you couldn't?

I was merely trying to point out the fact that the huge distances that are being obtained today are due mainly to the increased shaft lengths. (and their material)

The 400-460cc hollow bubble of Titanium negates the extra skill that would have been needed to contact the ball with added shaft length. It negates the trade-off that was once required to achieve more distance. That is what this thread was all about. Why are amateurs achieving some insanely far distances?

I'm merely trying to get to the truth of the matter, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not trying to offend anyone.

Like I said in my post, I knew that this was a very sensitive area...

If you read my post carefully you will see that I said:  " I believe it's not really in the spirit of the game, especially for the serious amateur or professional . That's my personal opinion. Am I allowed to have a personal opinion?

The thread and discussion are about the distances obtained by average golfers with their Drivers . But now you want to go and discuss irons too?

My reply, and opinion (if I am allowed that) is that the innovations in shaft material and head design on irons have not affected the game anywhere near as much as the "innovations" in Driver design. (Of course, the size of the irons today have not doubled, have they?)

Interesting fact that you may not know... The irons that "most" of us have today play one club different than those in the past. Because the manufacturers know that "distance" sells,

So the, let's say...  5 iron that you have is really a 4 iron from the past that has a number 5 stamped on the bottom. Look it up on the web. The same degree of loft is now on a differently numbered iron than one from a few years back.

How's that for advancing an iron?

Tristan, I'm only trying to get people to see the truth behind the new modern drivers, that's all.

It is my opinion that they are "Have your cake and eat it too clubs." You get the 3 or 4 inch increase in shaft length without the added skill needed to hit the ball with a traditional sized club head.

So, in effect, you get to sit down at the $500 blackjack table without having to lay down a $500 bet. You get the increased jackpot chance while only having to lay down a $50 bet. IMHO

(No, I'm no a gambler, but I think the analogy fits.)

Nutmeg

[CuppedTin]

I don't believe that the newer clubs offer many advantages to todays amateur golfer. The ball just goes that much farther in the woods. And as far as irons go I think there was more consistency in the blades than the irons out now. If you could play blades and consistently score well, then you had to have a decent swing... Just my opinion

In my opinion all the newer technology does if give the average or below average golfer just enough hope to keep coming back.

[saevel25]

Well if you have a severe swing issue, yeah no club will help that. But you just miss half the fairways and those misses are not that bad, then the extra distance is huge. Also it allows you to play a high spin ball, because of the low spin driver. It use to be you have to play a low spin ball, or have a very low degree loft. Now you can play a higher spine ball, softer ball, and get the distance and still have feel around the greens.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Well if you have a severe swing issue, yeah no club will help that. But you just miss half the fairways and those misses are not that bad, then the extra distance is huge. Also it allows you to play a high spin ball, because of the low spin driver. It use to be you have to play a low spin ball, or have a very low degree loft. Now you can play a higher spine ball, softer ball, and get the distance and still have feel around the greens.

What, may I ask, is a "low spin driver"?  There are high, medium and low spin balls, but I never heard of a driver with low spin.  Swing speed and angle of attack will change the amount of spin you put on the ball, but I've never heard of the driver itself being responsible.  I don't think that modern drivers are inherently any more or less spin imparting than a 70's persimmon.  However, I'm open to discussion if you can show me evidence.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

What, may I ask, is a "low spin driver"?  There are high, medium and low spin balls, but I never heard of a driver with low spin.  Swing speed and angle of attack will change the amount of spin you put on the ball, but I've never heard of the driver itself being responsible.  I don't think that modern drivers are inherently any more or less spin imparting than a 70's persimmon.  However, I'm open to discussion if you can show me evidence.

I could be wrong but I think he is referring to the shaft, which I'm sure you are aware due to kickpoint are more or less prone to spin. Correct?

[newtogolf]

Technology has left it's mark on all sports.  Consider the impact of graphite on tennis racquets, baseball gloves have gone from leather covering over the hand to gloves that are 3x - 4x larger than the original ones and double wall and tri-wall aluminum bats have made it possible for anyone to hit a home run in softball.

If you enjoy playing golf with your old clubs that's great but you understand that you're handicapping yourself when playing against someone using current technology, just as you would be if you attempted to play shortstop in a baseball game bare handed.

Originally Posted by NutmegGolfer

Well, I did say that I knew I was touching upon a sensitive area !

I only offered up the truth...nothing more, nothing less...

The modern drivers have huge grapefruit sized club heads placed at the end of longer shafts that make it possible to hit the ball very long distances. I pointed out the fact that there is no longer any trade-off involved with "finding" the ball with increased shaft length when the clubhead is 400-460cc.

I then stated that "I believed" it was not in the spirit of the game especially for professionals or serious amateurs. (My personal opinion)

Never did I state or mean to imply that everyone who used modern drivers were cheating.

I was merely trying to "draw back the curtain" and reveal the fact that the longer shafts are increasing the drive lengths, and the big bubble at the end of the longer shafts makes it possible to at least hit the ball.

Yes, you are correct when you point out that these innovations are making golf more enjoyable for the average amateur.

My point is that doubling the average size of the driver club head from 190-200cc to about 400-460cc is not so much an "innovation" but more like a "transformation".  My opinion is that, yes, it makes the game more enjoyable for the average players out there, but for the serious amateurs and professionals it's not in the spirit of the game. When I see the NFL receivers using gloves that effectively "double" the size of their hands, then yes, I will feel it is against the spirit of the game.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

What, may I ask, is a "low spin driver"?  There are high, medium and low spin balls, but I never heard of a driver with low spin.  Swing speed and angle of attack will change the amount of spin you put on the ball, but I've never heard of the driver itself being responsible.  I don't think that modern drivers are inherently any more or less spin imparting than a 70's persimmon.  However, I'm open to discussion if you can show me evidence.

Rich, there are such things. Some drivers create more spin than others. Same for shafts. The higher the center of gravity, the "lower spin" the driver is. It's absolutely true and I encourage you to look into it more if you're so inclined.

Compare, for example, the 910D3 with the 910D2. Or this older one:

[NutmegGolfer]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Technology has left it's mark on all sports.  Consider the impact of graphite on tennis racquets, baseball gloves have gone from leather covering over the hand to gloves that are 3x - 4x larger than the original ones and double wall and tri-wall aluminum bats have made it possible for anyone to hit a home run in softball.

If you enjoy playing golf with your old clubs that's great but you understand that you're handicapping yourself when playing against someone using current technology, just as you would be if you attempted to play shortstop in a baseball game bare handed.

Yes, technology has left its mark on all sports. But baseball gloves at 3x-4x original size... ??? My hand fits a large cadet golf glove. It measures 7 1/4 from bottom of palm to tip of middle finger and 4 1/2 across palm. Just doubling that makes a baseball glove that would be 14 1/2 inches tall and 9 inches wide .... To be very honest with you... I haven't seen a baseball glove that big on anyone yet !

I noticed that you carefully dodged the professional baseball bat. If you look up Ty Cobb's baseball bat on the web, you'll notice that it isn't all that much different from the bats the pro and semi-pro players use today. The volume of the bat definitely hasn't increased by over 100% like the volume of the driver that the golf pro's now use and the material is still wood.

I don't play golf with old clubs , my persimmon driver is only two years old and was purchased from a company in Kentucky that proudly manufactures them.

I play golf against old man par, and I don't handicap myself by using very long shafted clubs with huge hollow shells that send the ball huge distances into the woods. As a matter of fact, when I play someone who is close to my golfing ability, I usually beat them. My driver does not handicap me at all.

[Wallstreet]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

What, may I ask, is a "low spin driver"?  There are high, medium and low spin balls, but I never heard of a driver with low spin.  Swing speed and angle of attack will change the amount of spin you put on the ball, but I've never heard of the driver itself being responsible.  I don't think that modern drivers are inherently any more or less spin imparting than a 70's persimmon.  However, I'm open to discussion if you can show me evidence.

I have a driver that with the stock shaft would balloon in  the air and actually spin backwards like a 9 iron.  With my new shaft it goes 30 yards farther and rolls.  Like others have said the shaft will give you less spin.  A stock shaft will actually put more backspin on a drive if you have too fast a swing for the shaft.  Which is why I encourage everyone to get fitted for a shaft rather than a driver head.  The shaft makes the driver.

[CuppedTin]

I honestly think technology is overrated in golf equipment and a lot of people thinks it's changing the game and I just do not see it. It would really be cool to see just how much the average handicap has changed among amateurs over the past 5 or 10 years... Just because the ball is longer, the head is bigger and the shaft is more accurate, they still have not came out with a club that will swing itself.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

I honestly think technology is overrated in golf equipment and a lot of people thinks it's changing the game and I just do not see it. It would really be cool to see just how much the average handicap has changed among amateurs over the past 5 or 10 years... Just because the ball is longer, the head is bigger and the shaft is more accurate, they still have not came out with a club that will swing itself.

Handicaps have gone down. Hackers are better than they used to be, but golf courses are longer and typical weekend pin placements we're faced with would have gotten someone fired 20 years ago. Golf course superindendents seem to take it personally when people shoot good scores.  If courses where set up the same in 2011 as they were in 1991 my index would be half a dozen strokes lower.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

I honestly think technology is overrated in golf equipment and a lot of people thinks it's changing the game and I just do not see it. It would really be cool to see just how much the average handicap has changed among amateurs over the past 5 or 10 years... Just because the ball is longer, the head is bigger and the shaft is more accurate, they still have not came out with a club that will swing itself.

I've read quite a few articles stating that handicaps and average scores have not come down much over the years - less than a stroke over the last 20 years, IIRC  Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that equipment is not helping - the lack of improvement could be attributed to harder courses, the age of the average golfer going up (people living longer or taking up the game later in life), and more golfers who play fewer rounds per year due to modern society's hectic schedules.

[LankyLefty]

Their are plenty of baseball players who can throw 90 but never make the majors or even the minors or even college ball.

Averageing 300 yards is a little more complex then throwing a ball as more variables come into play... however at its core your distance is most closely associated with your swing speed which as some level is associated with your bodies natureal ability to make it muscles move fast. So the fact that a 20+ capper can hit it 300 or even 400 yards is not exactly supriseing.

Chris Shelton formerly of the Detroit tigers could hit a driver 425 yards... he was still a shitty golfer, but he has the god given ability to swing his arms at a speed most people cannot so he hits the ball far.

Technology has come a long way in making everyone longer and more accurate. It has not however helped in terms of course management or putting. Look at some of the oldest courses around. Course that were once considered difficult becuase of their lenth are now less daunting. Courses that make you play a course management game and have especially brutal greens stil play hard as ever.

Handicap index is combination of score and course difficulty, so the fact that HCP has not changed much is not nessesarily indicative of how much better the average golfer is.

[gspjeb]

I have played with high handicappers who can indeed smack it 300 yards......most of the time with out of balance lucky army swings with lots of roll.  I have yet to play with one that demonstrates any measurable amount of consistency.  300 yards and in the next fairway is kind of bad.  I can smack it 300 when I really step on it but I would have to accept that I would cut my fairways hit by about a third or more.  I am happy with 275 or so but more often than not in the fairway.

Most....and I would be willing to say 80% plus of golfers that I have been around think they hit it 45-50 yards further than they really do.  Can't tell you how many playing partners that I have had that have said "wow, you must have smacked that one 325 yards".  I just say thank and drive my cart to my 275 yard drive.