Why Aren’t More People Copying Moe Norman's Swing?

[turtleback]

I just joined today thinking I could share with others something exciting that I discovered recently in Moe Norman's swing.  However, all I get is attitude and insults.  So, I will walk away and let you kids do your thing.

Your loss

Remind me again.  How many majors did he win?

[Patch]

That's an interesting question. My first guess is that there is no one left alive who could properly teach it. I am not even sure Norman could have taught it. There use to be quite a few imitators out there trying to cash in on his name and swing. My second guess is maybe because Norman's swing/grip required a special lie angle for each club he used.  Very, very upright, with little consistency between each club. Rumor has it Norman adjusted his clubs one at a time, in a garage using 2X4s. My third guess would be that Moe Norman simply owned his own swing. His club grips were larger in diameter that normal clubs too. Another factor was that Norman practiced and/or played all the time from what I have read about him. 10-12 hours a day, 7 days a week. I know the swing works because I have golfed with folks who used what they called the "Natural Golf Swing" which is some what of a a copy of Norman's swing, and grip. They were very consistent golfers score wise, with some shooting near par. Norman made good use of his swing while winning 50+ tournaments during his pro career.

[Klinkstone]

Hi, I'm using a copy of or trying to swing like Moe Norman.

I bought the Natural Golf instructional materials years ago and tried the method.

I find the swing easier on my body especially the back.

Why don't more people use this swing?

My guess is the teachers don't teach this method.

I had a conventional swing lesson only once. The instructor said you are standing too far away from the ball and not finishing your swing.

In other words, you are doing it wrong.

[David in FL]

Hi, I'm using a copy of or trying to swing like Moe Norman.

I bought the Natural Golf instructional materials years ago and tried the method.

I find the swing easier on my body especially the back.

Why don't more people use this swing?

My guess is the teachers don't teach this method.

I had a conventional swing lesson only once. The instructor said you are standing too far away from the ball and not finishing your swing.

In other words, you are doing it wrong.

How long have you been trying to use a Norman type swing?  How did you go about learning/implementing it?  As a 5 hcp, it seems to be working for you.  I'd love to see it in action if you could post a swing video.

Welcome to the site....good to have you!

[Klinkstone]

I have been using the Natural Golf method or swinging like Moe for about 15 years.

I first read about Moe Norman in the December issue of Golf Digest from 1995. Jack Kuykendal claims he invented a new swing until he met Moe Norman. Moe developed that swing by trial and error and played his whole career that way.

Jack Kuykendal started the Natural Golf company to market the swing instruction and clubs. I was intrigued so I ordered the video and book.

I was just an occasional player who wanted to improve. I played a fade which turned into a slice if I swung too hard. My scores were at around 100 at the time, not good.

I joined a club and started practicing and playing regularly. I followed the Natural Golf instruction and my ball striking improved quickly. I experimented with clubs and grips at the same time. I found out that special clubs are not needed. Your clubs do need to fit you for loft lie and flex.

The better ball striking did not translate into low scores right away. I also needed a better short game.

My scores improved slowly it took me a few years to break 80. What is the secret? Hard work and stick to the method IMHO.

[dchoye]

Copying someone else's swing will lead to inconsistency. All pro golfers at that era from Nicklaus to Palmer to Hogan we're good ball strikers with their own swing Moe looks odd in his setup however his impact was very good All good ball strikers look the same from hip high to hip high through impact If it works for you that's great.

[Zeph]

Copying someone else's swing will lead to inconsistency. All pro golfers at that era from Nicklaus to Palmer to Hogan we're good ball strikers with their own swing

Moe looks odd in his setup however his impact was very good All good ball strikers look the same from hip high to hip high through impact

If it works for you that's great.

We're all unique, sure, but almost all these good players did have some swing keys in common. Copying a certain person's swing can work if it fits your swing, but it can also lead to some unfortunate results. Looking to copy certain elements based on your current needs are usually better than going all out and making an identical swing to someone else.

[kr99]

"his head injury as a kid made him [awkward] and since society has low tolerance for geniuses and autism he never made it on the PGA Circuit."

I joined the forum to reply to this fallacious  post from over two years ago, yay me!

It was Moe's personal choice not to join the PGA period. Likely due to his erratic behavior, however many speculate he was ultimately happier on the range or playing alone (much like Ben Hogan).

Had he joined the PGA we would be talking a lot less about past major winners.

[rustyredcab]

Been off the forum for a few months...

Why aren't more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

I don't know why. I can glean some insight from my (then teenage) son as he said, "I don't care how well it works. I think that swing looks goofy. I don't want to look goofy." In his defense, my swing looked awkward for a few years because it felt uncomfortable to me.

I discovered "Natural Golf" back in the days when it was mostly a front to sell clubs. I took private lessons from a local NG pro. After almost two years of NG, my index dropped from an all-time low of 18.0 before NG to a 16.1. My distances were shorter (I was never a long hitter) but my accuracy was better. My 90+ rounds were a little less frequent but still happened. It seemed I was still as likely to shoot 105 as I was 88.

Searching for more improvement and an instructor who would teach me the swing without trying to sell me more clubs at very lesson, I stumbled on Graves Golf and signed up for a 5-day school. What I discovered was that Graves taught Moe's swing and not the modified version that Natural Golf taught back then. They changed my grip, setup, take away... everything. They also showed me that with a proper setup, I should not have more upright clubs. I could use any brand of clubs. They did not care if I bought clubs from them, somewhere else, or simply flattened my existing clubs. They just wanted my static measurements to fit me.

The swing was no magic bullet and breaking bad habits took time and practice. After a few months of working, the new Moe swing started paying off. My high rounds happened less often. My index started to drop. I gained lots of distance. I now am among the longer hitters in my group -- though a short hitter by internet forum standards. I've changed irons and shafts recently to increase distance consistency and do not care about length with my irons. My index dropped to a low of 6.1 a few years ago when I played and practiced "a lot." This year, with only 12 rounds played, it has jumped back up to 10.1. While very high for me of late, even 10.1 is a number I could not have dreamed about before discovering Moe's swing. As I said, it is not a magic bullet. One must still practice to play well.

So...

Why aren't more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

My regular group has watched me go from a shorter hitter who was among the worst scorers in the group, to the longest hitter and the guy who's ball we play off each week. I'm giving 15 strokes to guys I used to play even. One guy has "tried" Moe's swing and gave it up because the change was too hard for him -- everything must change for this to work. The oldest member of our group has just ordered the videos and plans to try it to prolong his years of playing (he is 75 years old). Moe's swing is easy on your back and knees. My older buddy has moved away so he is on his own (no range help from this long-time student). In his prime, he was a very good stick. I imaging he will have a hard time giving up his old habits.

Changing to Moe's swing is a big change. It takes time and work. Guys who "try it" are doomed to fail as they would be "trying" any major overhaul of their swing. Guys who try a bit of it are also doomed IMO. Imagine trying to copy one aspect of any pro's swing while leaving major parts of your current swing as is.

Why didn't Moe win majors?

For one, he played at a time when being a PGA pro was not just about posting low scores. And, back then, Moe was never anyone's idea of what a golf pro should be. For another, he was one messed up and odd guy. Sponsors avoided him. Moe got a tip about his grip from his hero while on the range after the first round of The Masters, and he practiced so late into that night that his hands were bloody and he could not hold a club the next day. He ended up withdrawing (a big no-no in those days). He wore odd and ill-fitting clothes and used to lay down in the fairway in protest of slow play. Stories are that he was belittled by other pros for his dress and antics when he played in the US. They believed he was bad for the game. So he went home to Canada and scratched out a living there. There is a book about Moe and there are rumors of a major motion picture coming about Moe. His is a bittersweet story to say the least.

Natural Golf today -- the instruction part of Natural Golf was purchased by Graves Golf Academy a few years ago. So, Natural Golf now teaches the real Moe swing. They are teachers, not club salespeople (although they will sell you almost any brand if you wish). If you ever have a chance to see Todd Graves do a hitting demonstration, it is a thing to behold. His swing is an exact copy of Moe's.

[newtogolf]

Most people won't copy it because it looks strange to them.  Any swing is going to take time and practice to learn and become proficient with, so they prefer to go with something more traditional?

[leftofmoe]

The answer is very simple.Moe Norman revealed his swing method to only one person during his lifetime. Greg Lavern.

It would be impossible to copy Moe's swing unless you fully understood exactly what he was doing and thinking.

Since Moe became popular to the general public around 20 years ago, the so called golf guru's have thrown out their theories

and interpretations on what he was doing. Any fool can see that he stood with a wide stance and reached for the ball, but beyond that, it was 100% speculation....all of it wrong. Their is only one way you could possibly understand Moe's swing and that is to be in it.

Why I say that is because for more than 5 years I have dedicated myself to learn the swing Moe used in his early years. Not that half backswing, 65 year old swing that is the general depiction of Moe Norman. Do you look at the Nicklaus swing when he was 65 and say that is a good representation of how he swung the golf club in his prime. Of course not. The swing Moe taught Greg for almost two decades and the swing that Greg taught me is completely different in every respect to what is being pedaled today.

[Vinsk]

I've browsed around various websites including some emails from the Graves Golf Academy. I've also been on a few forums regarding Moe's swing. Unfortunately a strange phenomenon seems to be that people who have delved into it seem to be rather irritable and defensive. Make any mention of the swing not being your cup of tea or that Moe Norman wasn't the greatest golfer who ever lived and they pout, take their football and go home. Leftofmoe, I apologize, but I actually find your post to be just silly. I'm not interested in spending 20yrs on learning some swing done by an extremely unique character who will never be replicated. Common sense is why his swing isn't copied. The best players in the world do not work hard to swing like Moe Norman. Our very own Erik (IACAS) has done infinite research on the golf swing. The 5 keys are it. Everyone I've come across feels they are the real deal with knowing Moe's swing. The peddling is silly. If YOU'RE serious, make a website and teach it for free for the good of golf if you feel it's a "secret" to lowering scores. Enough.

[leftofmoe]

I'm not selling anything on my site. As for revealing what Greg has taught me, I don;t really feel that is an option. Moe made Greg promise to not reveal his information as long as he was alive. Greg kept his promise. I will trust his judgement on dishing it out. That's what Moe wanted and told Greg so. He sat in the wings for years while the so-called experts rattled on and on about Moe's swing, without the faintest clue what they were talking about.It wouldn't take you 20 years to learn Moe's swing. I spent almost 6 years working on it because that's how careful the information was revealed to me. I believe the average golf would benefit very quickly.

As a side comment,you could have just as well asked the question "why aren't more people copying Ben Hogan's swing". This is regarded as "the" best swing ever, but not one person since Hogan's day has been able to accurately reproduce it. Why? If it's so good why doesn't every instructor teach it and every professional copy it. It's because Hogan didn't tell anyone. He took his knowledge with him. The golf guru's will argue forever what and how he did it. They can't even agree.

The difference is that Moe did tell someone. Again,I'm not trying to sell you anything. I am just letting know about my journey and that I believe if the information Greg has revealed is put into practice, it will change the game.

Remember that the conventional golf instructors have had a hundred years to figure it out and the average HDCP has not dropped by a single stroke. You simply can't fix something that bad.

Give Moe's method a try. I promise you great things will happen to your game.

[iacas]

Remember that the conventional golf instructors have had a hundred years to figure it out and the average HDCP has not dropped by a single stroke. You simply can't fix something that bad.

That's not correct.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/70725/the-average-golf-handicap-hasnt-improved-for-the-last-30-years-anyone-have-data-on-this#post_911581

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I also disagree that we need to have heard from people directly to know how to reproduce their swing. Hogan wrote books. Both golfers gave clinics and have their swings recorded on many, many videos.

BTW, Moe had all 5SK. So his swing would perfectly well fit within the "system" we employ to help golfers, @Vinsk . :)

[MS256]

I'm not selling anything on my site. As for revealing what Greg has taught me, I don;t really feel that is an option. Moe made Greg promise to not reveal his information as long as he was alive. Greg kept his promise. I will trust his judgement on dishing it out. That's what Moe wanted and told Greg so. He sat in the wings for years while the so-called experts rattled on and on about Moe's swing, without the faintest clue what they were talking about.It wouldn't take you 20 years to learn Moe's swing. I spent almost 6 years working on it because that's how careful the information was revealed to me. I believe the average golf would benefit very quickly.

As a side comment,you could have just as well asked the question "why aren't more people copying Ben Hogan's swing". This is regarded as "the" best swing ever, but not one person since Hogan's day has been able to accurately reproduce it. Why? If it's so good why doesn't every instructor teach it and every professional copy it. It's because Hogan didn't tell anyone. He took his knowledge with him. The golf guru's will argue forever what and how he did it. They can't even agree.

The difference is that Moe did tell someone. Again,I'm not trying to sell you anything. I am just letting know about my journey and that I believe if the information Greg has revealed is put into practice, it will change the game.

Remember that the conventional golf instructors have had a hundred years to figure it out and the average HDCP has not dropped by a single stroke. You simply can't fix something that bad.

Give Moe's method a try. I promise you great things will happen to your game.

Oh no!!! Yet another person with a secret.

I have nothing against Moe Norman's swing but I find the whole I've got a secret routine comical.

[turtleback]

It has almost become cult-like.

[efdeel74]

I would like to try moe's swing (not 100% copy) next time I go to driving range ...see what happen I have try it at home with plastic ball, it seem accurate and repeable swing

[Klinkstone]

Hi Efdeel Just a few tips to those who want to try Moe's swing. Wide stance, slightly wider than shoulder width. Left hand grip neutral, right hand grip strong. Left knee or lead knee bent slightly at impact. Trail arm in-line or on plane with the club shaft at setup. Stance closed slightly at setup results in straight ballflight.