Flipping at Impact Master Thread

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

Picture kept to talk about the below...

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

mchepp,  you've already flipped before you get to p6.  Since the club is already releasing, you have no choice but to rake across the ball.

What? He's got almost a 90 degree angle at P5.8! Compare that to these two chops:

Note that you can't really judge where the hands should be because the legs and zipper and so on can move and aren't the same in every golfer or with every club.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

The club is releasing because your shoulders rotated open too quickly and your arms haven't brought the club down quickly enough so that the release happens at the right time.

His shoulders are still well closed at P5.8. I don't think they've "rotated open too quickly." If anything they've not rotated quite enough and he doesn't have quite enough secondary axis tilt. His right shoulder is still a little higher. It should be a bit lower at P6 (similar to address tilts).

Originally Posted by mchepp

[mchepp]

Originally Posted by iacas

If anything they've not rotated quite enough and he doesn't have quite enough secondary axis tilt. His right shoulder is still a little higher. It should be a bit lower at P6 (similar to address tilts).

Something I whole heartedly agree with.

No flip from that guy on the left. Axis tilt to waste there.

[bunkerputt]

Erik,  who's the guy on the left?  It looks like completely different mechanics from what Tiger is doing.  I agree mchepp looks similar positionally, but what are the differences in hand speed and body rotation...  The only real point I'm trying to make is that if you look at Tiger's angle retention or the guy mchepp posted, they are making that happen by actively swinging their arms down to the club.  mchepp and the guy in your picture on the left are relying more on body mechanics alone to pull the club down.  If you can get the arms moving actively and quickly and coordinate the rotation of the body you get plenty of hand speed and no loss of lag.  I'm arguing against the common Peter Kostis wisdom saying some garbage about using only big muscles in the golf swing here.  The more I play and the better my ballstriking gets, the more I realize you need to get the arms swinging.  Your brain basically knows how to move the body in response if you focus on what you want the hands and arms to do.  It has a harder time getting the hands and arms to do something if you are focusing only on moving the body.  If mchepp wants to swing like the guy on the left in your picture, push and rotate the hips more aggressively.  If he wants to swing like the guy on the left in his picture, pull the arms down more aggressively.  If he wants to swing like Tiger, do both.

[uttexas]

Erik,  who's the guy on the left?

Looks like Ben Doyle--No flipping here [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVZ0wY03rjk[/VIDEO]

[handlez42]

Clear the hips first. Then shoulders.

Drop the shoulder to make sure your coming through the same path on the downswing as the takeaway.

Try to imagine your shoulders moving in the same shape as the loop of a roller coaster. Keep them level, and following the "same path".

Release the elbow, followed suit by the hands.

Best way to create more crisp contact and "club, ball, ground" contact is taking half shots with short irons. Almost pitch shots.

"Lagging" the hands can even be done by taking shots with just the strong hand. One arm. Helps your body remember the angle at which

contact should be struck, and help tone down the hand flip.

Golf is crazy because soo many factors can affect one shot. Which is why certain little drills put together can help create one solid swing.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by uttexas

Looks like Ben Doyle--No flipping here

I think he meant in my picture. Troy Matteson.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

It looks like completely different mechanics from what Tiger is doing.

I'd like to discuss things but I'm not sure what "completely" means in that context.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

I agree mchepp looks similar positionally, but what are the differences in hand speed and body rotation...  The only real point I'm trying to make is that if you look at Tiger's angle retention or the guy mchepp posted, they are making that happen by actively swinging their arms down to the club. mchepp and the guy in your picture on the left are relying more on body mechanics alone to pull the club down.  If you can get the arms moving actively and quickly and coordinate the rotation of the body you get plenty of hand speed and no loss of lag.  I'm arguing against the common Peter Kostis wisdom saying some garbage about using only big muscles in the golf swing here.  The more I play and the better my ballstriking gets, the more I realize you need to get the arms swinging.

You seem to be arguing for getting the arms down faster - releasing #4 accumulator (more karate chop of the left hand). But the problem with this is that mchepp doesn't have enough secondary axis tilt. If he gets his arms down faster he's going to have little to no shoulder tilt/secondary axis tilt at impact and that's not going to serve him well at all .

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Your brain basically knows how to move the body in response if you focus on what you want the hands and arms to do.  It has a harder time getting the hands and arms to do something if you are focusing only on moving the body.  If mchepp wants to swing like the guy on the left in your picture, push and rotate the hips more aggressively.  If he wants to swing like the guy on the left in his picture, pull the arms down more aggressively.  If he wants to swing like Tiger, do both.

I disagree that swinging his arms down faster is a good thing right now. He's simply lacking enough secondary axis tilt. Maybe he could do that if he wants to hit the ball half as high as he is now, but getting the arms down faster isn't going to be a long-term solution. IMHO.

[Stretch]

So I've been thinking about the conversation that mchepp and I had here about hip slide, hip stall and flipping last month. (Yeah, I think slowly!) And I just felt like I missed something important -- didn't make some connection that should have been there. Well, today it shook loose. Remembered something from a video I have by Greg McHatton -- a noted TGM instructor -- where he talks about the right knee in the downswing.

Quote:

When the knee gets in front of the hip, the hip doesn't go anymore. If the hip stays in front of the knee -- then you're really working.

Had a quick look on YouTube and, happily, the relevant part is up there right at the beginning of the clip:

Once you look for this, you can easily see it:

What I think is that players like mchepp and myself are -- in a manner of speaking -- "faking" the proper hip slide by allowing the right knee to break in towards the ball as the left knee and left hip move towards the target, rather than maintaining or even increasing the "separation" of the knees that McHatton mentions. This does let us get forward into impact, so we are able to hit the ball OK, but at the cost of making it impossible for our hips to keep turning properly through the hit -- hence the flip, the shifting of the plane out to the left and the lack of secondary axis tilt.

(I'd be interested to see the frame of your finish position, mchepp. Guessing your knees will be pretty close together.)

So, yeah, it is an extension piece in the sense that the right leg is not straightening as it should. But the primary fault, it seems to me, is the right knee working forward (target-wards) and out (ie. between the left toe and the ball) rather than forwards and back (ie. roughly towards the left heel). The proper action was actually discussed a while ago in the Biggest Secret: Slide Your Hips thread and I'm going to start working on one of the drills Erik described there.

Quote:

The goal here is to stop the right knee from going out (towards the ball) and to keep it "banking" inwards, or forwards, towards the target. So you put the tripod just inside your knee and just towards the ball so that any outward motion with that right knee will make you hit it. You could also use an old club shaft stuck in the ground, etc.

The knee should pass to the inside of it. If it bends and/or sticks out to the right instead of banking forward (target-ward), then it'll hit the obstruction.

Th-th-that's all folks.

[mchepp]

Stretch,

Another thought provoking post here. Good find on the McHatton video. Trouble I am having is that some guys swings require some additional analysis before I completely agree with your conclusion. I have always struggled with kicking the knee in, so I know it is a fault of mine. Although I have found that preventing the knee from going in moves my baseline more left than it does to the right, but that is not a scientific point of view.

To properly decide the knee position we need the dtl and fo views. My counterpoint is Ryo. Not a flipper. Not a perfect swing, but pretty dang good. He has that knee going in pretty far. Do you think he is "faking" it. I am genuinely asking, I don't know. One could argue that his knee is parallel to his hip and we are more inside the hips, but it is closer to the hip than Charlie. In addition his knees finish pretty close together. I think if I looked hard enough I could find a few more guys. I don't like to just throw one guy at you and say you are wrong, but promote some more discussion on this.

What are your thoughts on this?

[bunkerputt]

Great post Stretch.  Notice that he is pressing from a square hip position and then I would add something:  pay critical attention to the amount of straightening/flex in the right leg at P4 as it relates to the amount of hip turn.  At P4, the hips are turned away from the target and you have to do something to get them to the square hip position so you can press like he is showing.  This is one of the cruelest part is of the golf swing.  The more flex you have, the more bend you have in your legs, the more the stronger muscles of the glutes can activate to move your lower body laterally, just as it is easier to jump out of the way of someone about to run over you if you are squatted a little.  The problem is that it almost works too well and tends to cause unneeded rotation.  The straighter your right leg is the more turned your hips are, the more the weaker muscles of the hip flexors are engaged to move laterally.  This makes it easier to move laterally, and harder to rotate, but you can't move the lower body as quickly because those muscles are not as strong.  My recommendation, as always, is a blend of the two along with strengthening of the weaker muscles and working on tempo.

[Stretch]

Ryo's easy!

I can't import this into Analyzr right now because of YouTube changing their code, but look how much in front of the right knee the right hip is at P5. The knee kick doesn't start until the hip slide is finished, rather than vice versa.

[Valleygolfer]

Yet another flipping video.... I like the content and explanations of this video.

Anyone have opinions on this videos.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Valleygolfer

Yet another flipping video.... I like the content and explanations of this video.

Anyone have opinions on this videos.

That's funny. I was just sent this email by a student and wrote some stuff up on it.

I think he's wrong in a lot of ways. I'll elaborate more in a bit (maybe I'll just edit this entry) if I can, but I'm running out the door right now. I'll bookmark this and try to come back to it.

[handlez42]

Had some issues recently went to "the store" to check out if the stock shaft I had was killing all the energy I was creating in my swing also was concerned I was ballooning the shafts I tested out for a year before when I got new fg tours. Nippon ns pro 8950gh in reg flex. They put me on the simulator and the guy who was the simulator guru said I was naturally bringing the club inside on my downswing. ("hard thing to teach but its a good thing so dont worry") I felt good about the feedback and he said what could be causing the high flight was me laying back a bit on my back foot which is causing sometimes early bottoming out and the face left open. He had me leaning forward a large amount on my front foot,setting the club early and taking it outside, half swings. I think he was a stack and tilt follower he mentioned it a few times and his full swing examples look like how I looked.

Only issue is now that im trying to combine weight transfer and an outside takeaway I think im bringing the club through out-to-in more and causing a very late reacting fade. It starts nicely just left of target but almost always no matter the distance or club (minus wedge shots and tee shots with woods) shots will go half the distance and suddenly and somewhat softly fade off right...only highly noticeable on par 3s

He suggested a lesson to get all the mechanics down and help my swing on plane then he would be able to give me a proper shaft fit for my irons. He thinks I could get into a stiff with simple mechnic tweaks. I'm tall 6'4" so creating speed should be a bit smoother im considering Nippon pro 1150gh cause compared to the kbs tour and kbs ctaper they are apparently slightly sifter and great feel.

Either way my swing is all over the place and most of it might be lag. Gotta break out the tour striker =P

How do you transfer weight forward while keeping your top half somewhat behind the ball? You always see slow mo video of players and the lines in the stance compared to at contact like spine alignment...it just seems impossible ha

[Valleygolfer]

Originally Posted by iacas

That's funny. I was just sent this email by a student and wrote some stuff up on it.

I think he's wrong in a lot of ways. I'll elaborate more in a bit (maybe I'll just edit this entry) if I can, but I'm running out the door right now. I'll bookmark this and try to come back to it.

I guess one thing I got out of it which I had not put into my swing thoughts was the relationship of the shoulder turn through the ball to ensure the wrist stay cocked. I was having a hard time picturing what I was supposed to be doing to achieve the lag. I was still managing to do it but not all the time and I didn't know why. I will have to practice this (once my strained rhomboid heals) and see if I can implement this effectively.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Valleygolfer

I guess one thing I got out of it which I had not put into my swing thoughts was the relationship of the shoulder turn through the ball to ensure the wrist stay cocked. I was having a hard time picturing what I was supposed to be doing to achieve the lag. I was still managing to do it but not all the time and I didn't know why. I will have to practice this (once my strained rhomboid heals) and see if I can implement this effectively.

There are a lot of things that can affect lag. The student who emailed was failing to get his arms down quickly enough, so he HAD to flip to get to the ball or his shoulders would rotate too open and the left shoulder would get too high. When the left shoulder gets too high, you NEED to flip to lengthen the lever (the left shoulder to the clubhead). So he has to feel the left arm moving across the chest faster, the left shoulder staying lower.

That's the short version, but it makes sense. I think lag is way, way too complex a subject to just attribute it to centripetal force like the video did. Where and what your weight is doing, your head, your shoulders, your elbows, wrists, the RATES of all of those things relative to one another, the knees, the feet. It all comes into play.

[nevets88]

Erik,

Would you say not bringing down the arms fast enough is a common problem you see in students and amateurs in general? If so, is it common to players of all levels or a particular level?

Originally Posted by iacas

There are a lot of things that can affect lag. The student who emailed was failing to get his arms down quickly enough, so he HAD to flip to get to the ball or his shoulders would rotate too open and the left shoulder would get too high. When the left shoulder gets too high, you NEED to flip to lengthen the lever (the left shoulder to the clubhead). So he has to feel the left arm moving across the chest faster, the left shoulder staying lower.

That's the short version, but it makes sense. I think lag is way, way too complex a subject to just attribute it to centripetal force like the video did. Where and what your weight is doing, your head, your shoulders, your elbows, wrists, the RATES of all of those things relative to one another, the knees, the feet. It all comes into play.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by nevets88

Would you say not bringing down the arms fast enough is a common problem you see in students and amateurs in general? If so, is it common to players of all levels or a particular level?

Not particularly common, no. Tends to be something better players do (get them down a little too slowly).

[Zeph]

Not very impressed with the video. Unless the guy he got a video from got a rare problem in his swing, he should be working on something else. Like the speed of the arms and stuff like Erik mentions. Generally I wouldn't tell someone to rotate the shoulders more, longer or faster to prevent a flip. Again, it's very individual, but I don't like the advice in any event. Work on lag by not working on lag. Faster arms, weight forward, steady head, shorter backswing, quieter hips or whatever. If you got components in the swing that lead to flipping, trying to fix it by holding the flying wedges or something like that will be difficult and probably not work in the long run.