Wi lays the smack down!

[Harmonious]

OK, that does add something to the Foley/Bennett/Plummer disagreement. I could see how they might feel slighted and/or doublecrossed. As I said earlier, Foley comes across as pretty arrogant in the article, but he's in the self-promotion business, as all the tour gurus are. It is of monetary benefit to him to say that he came up with his swing methods himself, rather than to share the credit. Not ethical, maybe, but until a swing method can be copyrighted, it will always be that way.

Foley sounds like a tool, but the worst thing (imvho) about the controversy this weekend, is that a guy having a pretty decent tournament probably didn't need any extra distractions. Charlie Wi was one putt away from Atlanta - he looked exhausted on the back nine.

Had to feel for Wi and the others who couldn't close the deal to make the top 30.. There were a number of folks who seemed to have felt the collar tighten up just a bit on the back nine. Johnny Miller mentioned it more than once. Almost had the feel of watching the final round of Q School, knowing that so-and-so needed a putt to clinch a spot. Some guys handled it, others didn't. Made for interesting viewing.

[jamo]

Had to feel for Wi and the others who couldn't close the deal to make the top 30.. There were a number of folks who seemed to have felt the collar tighten up just a bit on the back nine. Johnny Miller mentioned it more than once. Almost had the feel of watching the final round of Q School, knowing that so-and-so needed a putt to clinch a spot. Some guys handled it, others didn't. Made for interesting viewing.

Yeah. It was really cool to watch Ryan Moore on that last hole. From behind the green he needed to get down in 3 to make it to Atlanta. I doubt he knew that but it was still cool to watch because he took the safe play out to the left. Gutsy move.

[mvmac]

it's based on what they did, not their "practices and teachings." they all swung the club fairly differently, but they had pieces in common, as all great players do. Mike and andy categorized these and put them into a pattern of compatible pieces. For example, nicklaus didn't have deep hands at the top of his backswing, but most players did, so they threw out that part of nicklaus's swing... And so on down the line, basically.

Attachment 2460 Attachment 2461 Attachment 2462

[majorchamp]

so I am curious how this will play out. Either the pattern will continue where Foley is praised (more for simply being a teacher to Mahan, Woods, and OHair) and Mike/Andy will fade into the bg...or some bruhaha will get made in an attempt to embarass Foley (like you said, Andy has hundreds of text/emails from Foley). Not saying Andy/Mike will try to embarass him..just saying "someone" will go ahead and connect all the dots and paint Foley is a downright awful light, calling him out on his BS (besides what Wi already said.., just on a bigger scale).

Also..so does Foley have enough info to go on to continue his teachings..has he exhausted Mike/Andy for S&T; knowledge since he has already burned that bridge with them. I am fairly certain they won't take his phone call...or maybe they will simply because Tiger is now Foley's prospect...and we all know in the golf world if Tiger is tied to something, you better be a part of it. Ride the coat tails. Will Tiger possibly drop Foley if he comes off as a fraud?

Foley sounds like a tool, but the worst thing (imvho) about the controversy this weekend, is that a guy having a pretty decent tournament probably didn't need any extra distractions. Charlie Wi was one putt away from Atlanta - he looked exhausted on the back nine.

well....he kind of stepped in some shit on that one...I mean he was the one who answered the question the way he did and stirred up some controversy. Had he not answered it the way he did, there wouldn't have been extra distractions.

[sean_miller]

well....he kind of stepped in some shit on that one...I mean he was the one who answered the question the way he did and stirred up some controversy. Had he not answered it the way he did, there wouldn't have been extra distractions.

I'm not saying for one moment his comments were well advised. It's unfortunate he thought he needed to say something.

[iacas]

Either the pattern will continue where Foley is praised (more for simply being a teacher to Mahan, Woods, and OHair)

Dave always said his dog could become the world's best teacher if Tiger Woods said he was.

Not saying Andy/Mike will try to embarass him

Highly unlikely to happen.

[Frank D Kim]

so I am curious how this will play out. Either the pattern will continue where Foley is praised (more for simply being a teacher to Mahan, Woods, and OHair) and Mike/Andy will fade into the bg...or some bruhaha will get made in an attempt to embarass Foley (like you said, Andy has hundreds of text/emails from Foley). Not saying Andy/Mike will try to embarass him..just saying "someone" will go ahead and connect all the dots and paint Foley is a downright awful light, calling him out on his BS (besides what Wi already said.., just on a bigger scale).

I think Foley will now further distance himself from Mike & Andy. If I were Foley, I would be crazy to call Mike & Andy. I read somewhere where Tiger said some of the things he is working with Foley has some similarities to Stack & Tilt, but there are things that has absolutely no connection/resemblance to it as well. He was quite adamant about the latter part where it seemed like he did not want to be associated with Stack&Tilt; whatsoever. But, as Andy & Mike have said all along in their interviews, DVD, book, etc. players(pros and amateurs alike) does not have to completely do everything they teach about Stack & Tilt, but could just as well adopt few concepts they teach and get good results.

[saevel25]

I think alot of the critism has come from golf digest article, were they bashed alot of the conventional method, making it seem like nothing tought by anyone else was right at all. It also over dramatisized the faults in the conventional method of teach, when i say conventional i mean what has been tought besides S&T.; Really, when i read the article i was turned off, it took me to this sight and alot of nice heated discussions to start to figure out that alot of what S&T; says has worked for me.

I also find that Foley taking all the credit because Tiger is in his camp now is his choice. Just because he learned from the S&T; guys doesn't mean he has to give them a plug every time he talks to someone about Tiger's swing. It would be nice if he doesn't throw them under the bus or critisize them when he clearly has taken alot from them. In that regards he is wrong.

Its also wrong for other teachers to try to exile these two who clearly have the Player's trust.

[newtogolf]

Part of me can understand Foley not wanting to take the spotlight off of him to place it on Mike and Andy. For whatever reason Tiger went to Foley and not the S&T; guys, so maybe there is something unique about his approach. It could be that Foley has distanced himself from S&T; and Tiger doesn't want to be associated with it either. No matter what the reasons, Foley was obviously a student of Mike and Andy and shouldn't be speaking negatively about them.

[majorchamp]

Part of me can understand Foley not wanting to take the spotlight off of him to place it on Mike and Andy. For whatever reason Tiger went to Foley and not the S&T; guys, so maybe there is something unique about his approach. It could be that Foley has distanced himself from S&T; and Tiger doesn't want to be associated with it either. No matter what the reasons, Foley was obviously a student of Mike and Andy and shouldn't be speaking negatively about them.

and also, correct me if I am wrong...but Tiger has enjoyed playing practice rounds (pre Foley) with Mahan and Ohair, right? So I am sure Foley was talked "up" by those two guys, putting him in a good light. So it might be his approach, and it might be that those associated with him have spoken highly of him.

Before this latest debacle, what were peoples (fellow instructors, pga players, etc...) opinion of Foley?

[iacas]

I think alot of the critism has come from golf digest article, were they bashed alot of the conventional method, making it seem like nothing tought by anyone else was right at all. It also over dramatisized the faults in the conventional method of teach, when i say conventional i mean what has been tought besides S&T.; Really, when i read the article i was turned off...

That's funny to me only because my reaction was almost the exact same thing. "If they have to make the 'conventional' swing look that bad to make their swing look good then I'm not buyin' it."

It would be nice if he doesn't throw them under the bus or critisize them when he clearly has taken alot from them. In that regards he is wrong.

They're not asking for credit. They're just asking that he not lie through his teeth and do the bus/criticizing stuff.

and also, correct me if I am wrong...but Tiger has enjoyed playing practice rounds (pre Foley) with Mahan and Ohair, right? So I am sure Foley was talked "up" by those two guys, putting him in a good light. So it might be his approach, and it might be that those associated with him have spoken highly of him.

He played practice rounds with a lot of the actual S&T; guys too. He's had good things to say about JJ's swing, and spent two days talking with Troy Matteson about the changes he's made. He actually said "I just don't know if I can do it yet with the driver" to Troy recently about his new swing (which is wrong - he can, he's just not comfortable yet).

[Zeph]

It could be that Foley has distanced himself from S&T; and Tiger doesn't want to be associated with it either.

That is very much possible, yes. One can understand why Charlie was upset. Foley spends a lot of time learning from Mike and Andy, then throw them under the bus and says he only use 5% of their philosophy.

Source: From some article And though Woods’s new backswing seems to keep a lot of weight on his front foot, he denied that the change could be called a move into the camp of the unconventional Stack and Tilt swing system. “No, no, no,” Woods said, although he then said what he was doing could be construed as being linked to the Stack and Tilt.

Goes to show how people steer away from S&T;, just because it is S&T.; I don't know how much Tiger really knows about S&T;, but I doubt it is very much. He has been working on staying centered and getting his hands deeper. You can pick those two things right out of the book by Mike and Andy. He may not practice the style of S&T;, but there is no doubt he is doing Stack and Tilt stuff, because Foley is telling him to do them. He does admit that the stuff he works on can be linked to S&T; though. Let's look at the chain of events here: 1: Foley learns a lot from Mike and Andy. Ask them questions, get help with his students. 2: Tiger starts working with Foley 3: Tiger starts working on S&T; principles (whether he acknowledges it or not) 4: Foley goes on to say: ""Stack and Tilt is one method of swinging. If it's such a great system, then why are people coming for a 'watered-down version' from me?" and credits them "maybe 5 percent" of the inspiration behind his own, very similar, swing ideas.

[iacas]

Let's look at the chain of events here:

You left out "Foley has a dry run with Sean O'Hair in which he teaches him pretty much everything he knows about S&T;, while constantly bugging Mike and Andy with video of O'Hair."

[majorchamp]

I have asked this before but I think it got overlooked, so here it is again.

How "long" has Foley been associated with P&B;? Couple years? 5-10? Just curious how long and deep the relationship exists.

I don't like this notion, though, that P&B; never have anything to discuss with Foley...that its always one sided, at least that is how its been portrayed on here and via articles. Is it "really" that black and white, or is there a bit of drama being added to prove a point..that Foley does all the questions.

[iacas]

How "long" has Foley been associated with P&B;? Couple years? 5-10? Just curious how long and deep the relationship exists.

Nearly three years. He'd been talking with them (and showing them video of O'Hair's swings, etc.) for over a year when

this article was written around March '09. http://iacas.org/f/ohair_waite.mov

I don't like this notion, though, that P&B; never have anything to discuss with Foley...that its always one sided, at least that is how its been portrayed on here and via articles. Is it "really" that black and white, or is there a bit of drama being added to prove a point..that Foley does all the questions.

You can "not like" the notion all you want, but it's not a notion. You've not stood on the range at a PGA Tour event and seen the interactions.

The infomercials - which are created by Medicus who own the DVD rights, btw - are not the topic.

[Zeph]

Nearly three years. He'd been talking with them (and showing them video of O'Hair's swings, etc.) for over a year when

And then we find him in this clinic, saying the exact opposite (no lateral movement) and wrongly identifying S&T; with the upper body tilting towards the target. One can wonder sometimes how people reach the conclusions they speak.

Source: Sean O'Hair When you're here (at the top) , all you have to do, to get through the ball, is rotate again. There is no lateral movement, there's none of that. I'm not a huge beliver in Stack & Tilt. Stack & Tilt is this way (Sean leans his upper body towards the target) .

[Stretch]

Let's be honest and say Tiger knows what he's doing here, too. He's looking for something that works for him but can't afford to be tied to the stupid "Get Stacked!" infomercial image of S&T; that most people unfortunately have. To most of the golfing fraternity, it'd be a bit like him showing up on the first tee of the Masters with a ****ing Hammer driver in his bag. So in that sense Foley is a pretty good cutout.

[majorchamp]

what sucks with this whole debacle is much of it is inside knowledge. Sure there are quotes in articles, but they are what they are and all the smack or bashing comes because there are certain people who are "in the know" and that is a very tiny fraction of people.

For example..the whole Foley showing footage of O'Hair's swings to P&B...is; that public knowledge or something only a small group of people are aware of or were aware of that it was happening? Was it done so in a secretive type fashion?

And since I have not stood on the range at PGA Tour event, is Foley respected by his peers or looked at as a liar/cheat?

I brought up the infomercials because those would have needed P&B; approval, meaning they were fine with their system being packaged and sold that way.