We Need 2 Swings? Golf Mag Article/Trackman

[colin007]

i was reading the new Golf Magazine issue and theres a short article by TJ Tomasi stating that the data from Trackman shows that better players hit their irons with an out-to-in stroke and their drivers/woods with an in-to-out swing - and that we should do the same, in other words, try to groove different swings depending on the club.

what do you think? i thought it was generally best to hit everything with and in-to-out swing.

[B-Con]

Don't better players usually hit draws? How do you hit a draw with an out-in swing without hitting a pull-draw and having to aim 20 yards right of your target?

[mvmac]

I would tend to agree with you. Not sure if the players are actually changing their swing or if the setup is different, more open stance for irons.

[uttexas]

I stopped my subscription to that magazine, so I'll have to try to find it on the internet.
Now I could believe that tour pros like to play push fades (open stance with open clubface) with their irons, but I find it difficult to believe that they approach the ball from the outside with their irons (less efficient physics to hit a pull)
If you approach the ball from the outside, in order to hit the ball to the target, you would have to close the clubface (pull fade)
Pull fades fly lower and spin less than push fades.

"what do you think? i thought it was generally best to hit everything with and in-to-out swing."
I'd say yes (reasons above)

[senorchipotle]

if you notice divots of tour players, their iron shots generally create divots that are going left of the target, so it is likely the club may be coming very slightly from the outside.

[jamo]

if you notice divots of tour players, their iron shots generally create divots that are going left of the target, so it is likely the club may be coming very slightly from the outside.

If your swing is on a perfectly neutral plane with low point at the ball then, because you are swinging in a circle, the divot will naturally curve to the left.

[golfro]

It sorta makes sense if you think of it this way...typically, people claim that fades usually go higher and land softer, while draws get more distance.

Thus, a draw off the tee will get you more distance while a fade will get you more accuracy.

Now I don't really believe that fades are higher and softer, since my fades tend toa ctually be lower while my draws are higher (when it comes to my iron shots). But typically speaking, if one were to argue that fades DO go higher, than it makes sense.

[Quinn07]

Assuming my intended result was the same to hit the middle of the fairway on a straight hole (for argument sake) I would think that having two swings was some what ridiculous. Especially coming from a amateur point of view; learning to have one consistent swing is difficult enough. If I am trying to work the ball then yes you need to manipulate different factors of the swing and swing path possibly being one of them. IMO and from what I have read / heard, I think a lot of pros like the fade because they can control it more because of the increased spin. I guess looking at it from a strictly "best approach" method then having two swings might make sense, but from a practical sense - being an amateur - no thanks!

[colin007]

It sorta makes sense if you think of it this way...typically, people claim that fades usually go higher and land softer, while draws get more distance.

yeah, i think the science proves that a draw and a fade go the same height when hit correctly.

[newtogolf]

If I remember the article correctly, they suggest a stance with hands under the shoulder for irons, wedges and fairway woods. Hands under chin for driver to position you further from the ball and creating a flatter swing.

[golf4ever]

IMHO; The reason a fade might go higher is usulally the club face is more lofted (open) on a fade and more delofted (closed) on a draw. That is why Lee Treveno says a fade lands like a butterfly.

Of course, your swing differences may produce different heights (finish high or low, for instance).

[Chas]

Now I don't really believe that fades are higher and softer, since my fades tend toa ctually be lower while my draws are higher (when it comes to my iron shots). But typically speaking, if one were to argue that fades DO go higher, than it makes sense.

I'm having trouble understanding the geometry/ballistics of your personal experience. Maybe your draws go a bit higher than your fades (which is counterintuitive to me) because your angle of attack is different, i.e. you're hitting down on the ball a bit less in a draw shot. AOA is another determinant of ball flight of course.

Other things being equal, a draw will have a lower trajectory than a fade because the clubface is necessarily slightly closed by comparison. That's what creates the draw spin after all. No? So I'm agreeing with golf4 ever on this one.

[MJP]

I just feel like I get more swing speed with an in to out path. Why? Because I am not manipulating the swing plane at all and I am not wiping across the ball. No wasted motions (at least, that's the goal).

I bet Jim Furyk could hit the ball a lot farther if he didn't have so much wasted motion in his swing. Granted, he strikes it beautifully.

[Chas]

As for having TWO fundamentally different swing types, fuggedabaudit .

I find golf quite challenging enough with one thank-you-very-much.

Maybe if I were a pro and my career depended on it .....

[golfro]

I'm having trouble understanding the geometry/ballistics of your personal experience. Maybe your draws go a bit higher than your fades (which is counterintuitive to me) because your angle of attack is different, i.e. you're hitting down on the ball a bit less in a draw shot. AOA is another determinant of ball flight of course.

Actually the quite opposite for me me personally. when I hit draws, its often actually slightly open at impact so the ball starts off very slightly to the right then draws in. My fades on the other hand is slightly closed at impact - tend to start slightly to the left and fades to the right. So club face is actually the opposite of what you stated. (i'm right handed btw).

It widely varies more by club path than club face at impact position for me. I watched a Playing Lessons from the Pros with Chris DiMarco and he hits draws/fades by closing/opening his club face at address. This never worked for me, it just feels awkward.

[$2 Nassau]

I have about 10 different swings on any given day. Not a good thing.

[Chas]

Thanks golfpro, I see what you're saying. It all depends on the swing plane (club path) as you say.

I'm about to get my better half to video my swing with my new Handicam - I prolly don't want to witness the results.

[iacas]

If your swing is on a perfectly neutral plane with low point at the ball then, because you are swinging in a circle, the divot will naturally curve to the left.

Kind of irrelevant, jamo, as the low point is not "at the ball" for any good swing made by a PGA Tour level player (or a scratch golfer) except maybe the driver.

If you're lined up dead square to everything and the plane line is dead straight at the target, you'll make contact with the ball while the clubhead is moving down, out, and forward.

It sorta makes sense if you think of it this way...typically, people claim that fades usually go higher and land softer, while draws get more distance.

People claim that but they claim that based on push-fades and pull-draws.

If you line up the same and hit a push-draw and a pull-fade to the same target - mirror images of each other, basically, in terms of curvature - then the pull-fade will be a LOWER shot than the push-draw because the face will be closed. Now, think about the way a lot of people hit what they think is a draw... they hit pull-draws or straight draws. They aim well right of the target and either pull it left a little from their stance line or straight on their stance line with a ball that curves left. It's the amount of push or pull - relative to your stance which truly defines "neutral" in this type of discussion - that will determine height of the shot. Any shot that starts left of straight for a righty will be lower than any shot that starts right. Thus, a push-draw and a push-fade should be the same height, assuming the shaft lean is basically the same. Let's say your clubface is 3° right of your stance line and you swing to the right (in to out for a righty) 6°. Now let's take the same clubface but swing straight down the target line at 0°. In both instances the clubface is 3° open and the difference between the path and the clubface is 3°. One will push and draw - the other will push and fade.

Maybe your draws go a bit higher than your fades (which is counterintuitive to me) because your angle of attack is different, i.e. you're hitting down on the ball a bit less in a draw shot. AOA is another determinant of ball flight of course.

AoA is a determinent, yes, as is handle location, but the ball flight itself shouldn't be counter-intuitive unless you think that you need to hit draws with a clubface closed to your stance.

Other things being equal, a draw will have a lower trajectory than a fade because the clubface is necessarily slightly closed by comparison. That's what creates the draw spin after all.

No. See the above. It's closed if you hit a pull-fade or a pull-draw, and it's open if you hit a push-fade or a push-draw.

The target is irrelevant. In the case of ball flight (height), the only real variable is where your stance is aligned and where the clubface points relative to that. I can hit a pull-draw or a push-draw that both end up at the target - both would have to "push" relative to the target line. So it's irrelevant to talk about target here. Push is right of the stance line, pull is left of it (for a righty).