Jump to content
IGNORED

65/20/15 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time


iacas

Recommended Posts

The numbers don't agree with you.  Missing a six-foot putt is not nearly as damaging to your score as a missed green, and a missed green is not nearly as damaging to your score as a missed tee shot.

I'll give it a shot even though I'm not Erik, make sure you spell it with a K

With putting spend time on putts inside of about 6ft, lag putts from long distances  and reading greens (AimPoint).  Spending time on 20ft putts won't do much for your game.  Tour pros make about 14% of their putts from 20ft and it's a length you probably won't three putt from.

Thank you, someone earlier got a bit beligerant with me for saying this.

Rich C.

Driver Titleist 915 D3  9.5*
3 Wood TM RBZ stage 2 tour  14.5*
2 Hybrid Cobra baffler 17*
4Hybrid Adams 23*
Irons Adams CB2's 5-GW
Wedges 54* and 58* Titleist vokey
Putter Scotty Cameron square back 2014
Ball Srixon Zstar optic yellow
bushnell V2 slope edition

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I'm just gonna say, yeah you can say its "putting for dough," but the other part is "hit for show". What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting?

Everything in golf is important, that's why it's so hard to get good, because it takes hours and hours to practice everything. Like Tiger said, "A good drive makes everything possible", but you also need the other half of the game, too.

But, I'm still sticking to my opinion, if you are a beginner or trying to get good.. work on your short game FIRST! Once you get good at that, start focusing on the iron play and driver shots. I'm not saying ditch the clubs all around, but for me personally, if I had too choose one main thing to be apart of my game, it'd be short game. However, the reason I work long hours is to be well rounded and have all components of the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I'm just gonna say, yeah you can say its "putting for dough," but the other part is "hit for show". What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting?  Everything in golf is important, that's why it's so hard to get good, because it takes hours and hours to practice everything. Like Tiger said, "A good drive makes everything possible", but you also need the other half of the game, too. But, I'm still sticking to my opinion, if you are a beginner or trying to get good.. work on your short game FIRST! Once you get good at that, start focusing on the iron play and driver shots. I'm not saying ditch the clubs all around, but for me personally, if I had too choose one main thing to be apart of my game, it'd be short game. However, the reason I work long hours is to be well rounded and have all components of the game.

First, putting, chipping, and pitching are the most simple and easiest movements to learn. So they naturally require less time. Second, majority of the time, pros two putt, 61% of the time. Those with the best one putt, have good short games because they get tap ins, so they skew thei putting. Also would you rather two putt for par or need to one putt for par. What can you get closer, a putt or a chip. All this points to gir, mad proximity to the hole as the leading driver of golf score. The long game.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

First, putting, chipping, and pitching are the most simple and easiest movements to learn. So they naturally require less time. Second, majority of the time, pros two putt, 61% of the time. Those with the best one putt, have good short games because they get tap ins, so they skew thei putting.

Also would you rather two putt for par or need to one putt for par. What can you get closer, a putt or a chip. All this points to gir, mad proximity to the hole as the leading driver of golf score. The long game.

>putting, chipping, and pitching are the most simple and easiest movements to learn

Okay, I'm done with this conversation :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I'm just gonna say, yeah you can say its "putting for dough," but the other part is "hit for show". What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting?

That would suck.  Somebody who could do that would only be, like, a low single digit handicap or something.  Blech!

  • Upvote 1

Brandon a.k.a. Tony Stark

-------------------------

The Fastest Flip in the West

Link to comment
Share on other sites


That would suck.  Somebody who could do that would only be, like, a low single digit handicap or something.  Blech!

Okay, so if these guys devote so much of their time to the range, why don't they shoot in the single digits?

Scores add up buddy.. Bogey, par, par, bogey, bogey, etc.. gets you somewhere in the high 80's.. not single digits

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Okay, so if these guys devote so much of their time to the range, why don't they shoot in the single digits? Scores add up buddy.. Bogey, par, par, bogey, bogey, etc.. gets you somewhere in the high 80's.. not single digits

Correct. (If you play courses with 20 holes ;)). That pattern over a full round is an 82. Regardless, you are wrong about this. Saevel is dead on when he says that putting, chipping, and pitching are easy motions to learn. There is no reason to spend a lot of time (talking relatively here) practicing them. Also, notice that pros all have "swing" coaches. Not golf coaches or teachers, but specifically swing coaches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I'm just gonna say, yeah you can say its "putting for dough," but the other part is "hit for show". What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting?

It's actually "drive for show." :whistle:

In my bag:

Driver: Titleist TSi3 | 15º 3-Wood: Ping G410 | 17º 2-Hybrid: Ping G410 | 19º 3-Iron: TaylorMade GAPR Lo |4-PW Irons: Nike VR Pro Combo | 54º SW, 60º LW: Titleist Vokey SM8 | Putter: Odyssey Toulon Las Vegas H7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator

What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting?

Be happy?  Guys that hit a lot of fairways and greens are going to shoot good scores.  Even if you're a bad putter.

>putting, chipping, and pitching are the most simple and easiest movements to learn

Okay, I'm done with this conversation :)

Compared to the full swing, absolutely.

Seriously answer this question, would you rather take on Tiger in a putting contest or a closest to the pin contest from 175 yards away?

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Everything in golf is important, that's why it's so hard to get good, because it takes hours and hours to practice everything. Like Tiger said, "A good drive makes everything possible", but you also need the other half of the game, too.

Nobody is saying that the short game and putting isn't important. The thread is about where to devote your practice time to maximize your improvement.

But, I'm still sticking to my opinion, if you are a beginner or trying to get good.. work on your short game FIRST! Once you get good at that, start focusing on the iron play and driver shots. I'm not saying ditch the clubs all around, but for me personally, if I had too choose one main thing to be apart of my game, it'd be short game. However, the reason I work long hours is to be well rounded and have all components of the game.

If a beginner can't make consistent contact with the full swing, how will having a good short game help? Let him get up and down for triple bogey? A beginner, more than anybody else, would benefit the most from greatly improving their long game. In order to do that, they have to devote more time to it, not less.

Okay, so if these guys devote so much of their time to the range, why don't they shoot in the single digits?

Mostly because they don't know how to practice correctly, but that's another thread.

  • Upvote 1

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

What are you going to do when you smash a grand drive, right down the pipe of the fairway, and smash a ball on the green for a birdie chance. Two putt for a par every time? Possibly even three putting?

Be happy?  Guys that hit a lot of fairways and greens are going to shoot good scores.  Even if you're a bad putter.

Yeah, I just hate those pesky 2 putt, ho hum pars.......

Edited to add that I could have used more of those yesterday.  Shot a very pedestrian 79 on a relatively easy, par 71 course.  Chipped/pitched well and made everything I looked at.....including an up and down out of the shrubbery.  Unfortunately, I was IN the shrubbery in the first place, and it seemed, everywhere else but on the green in regulation.  Made for a long, painful day.....

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Its pure math.

If missing the green = 50% of the time you're getting bogey or par. Compare that if you only three putt 11% (2 times) a round. Which means if you hit the green you're only getting bogey 11% of the time. Which one is better for your score.

So you ask yourself, what would you trade, 50% chance  (which isn't that bad of a short game, pros average 58-60%.) for par, or 89% chance for par?

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Okay, so if these guys devote so much of their time to the range, why don't they shoot in the single digits?

Scores add up buddy.. Bogey, par, par, bogey, bogey, etc.. gets you somewhere in the high 80's.. not single digits

That is entirely different from the argument you wrote (which I replied to), which was that if a guy could hit a majestic drive and then hit a laser on to the green, but can't make a birdie putt (and also 3 putt once in a while), that is a bad thing.  At least I'm assuming you were saying that is a bad thing.  Realistically, that guy is not shooting a bad score.

However , even that hypothetical golfer (who hits nearly every fairway and green but can't putt worth a damn) actually falls in line with the premise of the original post of this thread.  Remember, the practice ratios have a caveat for a "glaring weakness."  The hypothetically great ball striker but horrible putter would definitely want to devote his time to the short game and putting.  But we need to be practical here.  The 2 handicap who is a "horrible putter" is wholly different from the 15 handicap who is probably just as bad (or good) of a putter as the 2 handicap (maybe 1-2 strokes worse per round?), but drops another 10-12 strokes to the single-digit handicap before he ever gets to the green.

That is essentially the point I'm making: the guy who needs to improve his putting to "putt for dough" is already likely a very good ball striker and can afford to spend more time on the short game.  The guys that you mention who are 15 handicaps are guys who could work on putting for 4 hours per day and still be a 15 handicap until he starts finding a full stroke that allows him to hit more fairways and greens.

Do the math on this: assume a person hits 18 GIR and is the worst putter on tour.  What would his score be?  Assume the worst proximity to the hole on tour, and then factor in average 3 putt frequency from there based on the worst golfer.  Maybe add 1-2 strokes to the 18-hole score to normalize it.  What do you come up with?

We could actually go further with this, but I have to get back to working for now :-)

Brandon a.k.a. Tony Stark

-------------------------

The Fastest Flip in the West

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I've been working off a theory for awhile now, and I've talked with a lot of people about it. I've charted how much time the average PGA Tour player spends doing things, I've talked with coaches and instructors at all levels. I've talked with good and in some cases great players.

Nothing yet has dissuaded me from thinking what I'm about to tell you. If anything, it's firmed up my belief. I'm still leaving the door open to the possibility that what I'm about to say still needs to be tweaked, but I think at worst it's pretty close.

What am I talking about? Try this on for size:

Unless you have a glaring weakness or a facet of your game which far outshines the others, you should spend 65% of your time practicing the full swing, 25% of your time practicing the short game, and 10% of your time practicing putting.

By "full swing" I mean every shot that uses full swing mechanics. This includes all shots over about 100 yards as well as some of the 1/2 and 3/4 that employ full-swing mechanics. By "short game" I mean everything else inside of about 100 yards that isn't putting. And by putting I mean putting. Duh.

Now, people who have argued against me on this will talk about how "60% of your shots are from within 100 yards of the green." That's great and all, but if you remove short putts from the equation the number drops significantly. Still, the number is around 40% for "short game + putting" and 40% for the full swing, so why have I said 65/25/10?

Because working back from the putting green to the tee, putting is simple. It's a relatively easy motion that does not take a lot of time to master. The mechanics are simpler, the requirements simpler, and the ceiling is more severe. If you're making half of your six footers (on bumpier, slower greens than those seen on the PGA Tour), that's all you need to play golf on the PGA Tour, so time spent practicing 20 footers (which are made about 14% on the PGA Tour, so you should expect to make about one in ten) is time better spent doing something else.

Moving back farther from the green, a good bit more time can be spent trying not to leave yourself a 20-footer for par, and working on the short game. I say you should practice your short game 2.5 times as much as your putting. Learn a few basic shots - a pitch, a chip, a bunker shot (which is just a variation of the pitch for many), and maybe a specialty shot or three (a bladed wedge from the fringe, a high flop, and a low checking shot). Variations of those will cover virtually every other shot you can imagine, and if you practice a few shots here and there from some odd lies, you'll do just fine.

Of course, you'll do even better if you're not having to use your short game for very much - better still to hit the green in regulation. There's a reason they say "two things don't last very long: dogs who chase cars and golfers who putt for pars." That takes us out to full swing range, and statistics show that the long game - driving the ball in play and hitting greens (particularly from longer distances) is absolutely crucial to playing good golf. There's a reason there's a formula out there that approximates your score by taking 95 - (2 x GIR). Hitting greens is the single biggest correlation to scoring well, and the only way to hit greens is to have a full swing that works - twice on average. The full swing is also orders of magnitude more complex and difficult to master than a putting stroke or a pitching motion.

Now, before everyone gets bent out of shape, note that I'm talking about time spent practicing each of these things, so the numbers aren't quite as slanted as you might think just by looking at "65/25/10." For example, because putting is so simple and because the balls are typically within 20 feet of you, you can hit perhaps four putts per minute. On the short game, because you have to round up some golf balls from farther distances, and take a few more practice strokes to feel the ground, you have to clean your club, etc. you can hit perhaps two balls per minute. On the driving range, I'll often hit balls as slowly as one every four to five minutes, but let's say you're not quite as deliberate or don't use quite as many practice motions as I do, and call it 0.75 balls per minute.

Multiplying the balls per minute by the time spent, we get numbers that look like this:

Putting: 10 minutes * 4 balls/minute = 40 balls

Short Game: 25 minutes * 2 balls/minute = 50 balls

Full Swing: 65 minutes * 0.75 balls/minute = 48.75 balls

So really, this works out to spending almost an equal amount of time on each of the three sections of the game, with slightly less spent on putting (and, really, this still makes sense because the putting stroke is relatively simple).

Note, too, that I'm talking about good practice. I'm not talking about whacking some balls on the green towards some holes and calling it "practice." I'm talking about working on the skills of putting (starting the ball on-line, controlling the distance the ball rolls, and reading greens properly). I'm talking about working on the skills of a good short game with drills - landing balls on targets, taking the same club and varying the height of some shots, one-handed pitching drills, etc. I'm talking about working on drills with the full swing, deliberate, good practice, and not just stepping up and smacking ball after ball during the full swing 65% of your practice time.

Now, when I talk about this someone will invariably say something like "I practice my short game religiously and my full swing stinks and I still shoot 82 most days!" They'll remember the one round they made everything or chipped close or in a few times and how it "saved" a bad round. To the first guy, consider how good he'd be if he could marry that short game with a long game that didn't lean on it so much. To the second guy, you remember that round because it's an anomaly, and because you hit the ball badly enough that you needed miracle short game shots just to shoot around your typical score!

The stats and studies don't lie. I get that a six-foot putt that you miss counts the same as a drive you put into the right rough. But the odds state very plainly that a six-foot putt is not nearly as damaging to your score as a miss green, and a missed green is not nearly as damaging to your score as a missed tee shot.

Them's the facts. I haven't shared them with you here, but they're out there, and I encourage you to look them up. Boiled down, they back my theory of the best way to divvy up your practice time:

Spend 10% of your practice time working on putting skills.

Spend 25% of your practice time working on short game skills.

Spend 65% of your practice time working on the full swing skills.

What's nifty is that you can do a surprising amount of all of this work at home, in your back yard, on your living room carpet, or with a mirror or wiffle balls.

And when you practice, make it dedicated, good practice. Don't just aimlessly whack balls, whether you're on the putting green, the short game area, or on the practice range with a driver in your hands.

Interesting. Just read this, agree with it al, but would bump down swing skills about 15 percent and putting up more.. I don't know, that's just me. I need a lot of work on my driver, but I'll get to hitting it consistently. I think putting saves even the best.. maybe you should switch putting and chipping, as you putt more than you chip. And if you practice ball striking the most, you shouldn't have to chip as much. So maybe like that, but you wrote up a great article and I don't want to pretend like I'm taking away from the thousand word subject you wrote, I liked the read. Good advice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator

Interesting. Just read this, agree with it al, but would bump down swing skills about 15 percent and putting up more.. I don't know, that's just me. I need a lot of work on my driver, but I'll get to hitting it consistently. I think putting saves even the best.. maybe you should switch putting and chipping, as you putt more than you chip. And if you practice ball striking the most, you shouldn't have to chip as much. So maybe like that, but you wrote up a great article and I don't want to pretend like I'm taking away from the thousand word subject you wrote, I liked the read. Good advice.

It's not about how much you use those shots or else a PGA Tour pro would devote 15-20% of his time to tapping in from two feet. It's a combination of how often you use them, how important they are, and how difficult they are to do. The short game presents varied lies, so even if you only have one short game stroke you'll have to know how the ball will react out of various lies.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Loving this thread.Interested no one really talking about practising specific to their home course and prevailing conditions....I play on a firm fast right! on the water links all year round and the wind is a massive factor in scoring opportunities and also helps to keep the greens quick and challenging particularly from above the hole!!.As a result I have plenty of practice on and around the greens as they can be nigh on impossible to stay on if you do hit them so scrambling skills a must!! flipside of course is my driving which is erratic and sometimes not best strategy to take big dog as wind makes any high ball flighted shot very risky indeed!

End result is I'm a single figure guy from 150 yds in where all my work is done and mid teens guy off tee where shot options leave me trying to manufacture a result rather than boom one for position....id love to be a better driver of ball but love the feeling of snaking in a 15footer to break hearts even more!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Day 106: did a stack session. 
    • Day 292 - Filmed some swings focusing on the same thing (setup, grip, wrist at the top).
    • Day 182 (31 Oct 24) - Shorter session today.  Worked with the 5i - setup, alignment and overall tempo - hitting into the net.  
    • Thanks! It actually briefly dropped to 5.8 at some point in July, but it felt like it was too rich for my blood every moment of the whole two weeks I held the 'level' for me to sustain it. The term 'impostor syndrome' comes to mind.. :-)) I have certainly done better than I have in the previous years to stay the course in how and what I have practiced but yes, it's a high probability that I'm leaving a lot on the table.    
    • Dang... in the realm of things that probably don't matter all that much, golf slumps are the worst. Yes definitely consult a pro ASAP. Get back to hitting it solid again. Hitting the sweet spot solves a lot of problems. For me it's always the latter. My confidence grows as I hit more and more solid shots, which are the result of continuing to improve my swing thru better concepts, better practice, etc.  Yea, this for sure. And also, without a professional there to let you know you "did it better this time" it can be unnecessarily frustrating and confounding working alone. It's not that you can't work alone; clearly, you can. But during rough patches, it's always smart to consult professionals. Lessons are an amazing place to take new concepts and turn them into feels that you are confident will work. It's still really cool you consider this your best ever season. Congrats on hitting 7.8 this year!
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...