Why is it unbelievable I can drive 300+ ?

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by lobbob2

What I meant by that statement is that the ball will always start out in the direction that the toe of the club is facing at impact. This is like hitting a fade or draw for example. Toe to the right ball goes right. toe left ball goes left, ( rt. handed player) If the ball then turns more rt. or lt. in its flight then your swing plane added to the problem. just like ping pong, or any other ball and stick game.

Confusing...  My cousin just started and keeps referring to this obscure concept he calls "flailing" that he heard about from a random driving range pro.  I still have no idea what it means exactly, let alone how to instruct him, but has something to do with not casting.  I don't really know how to discuss golf with him because of the language he uses.  Same could go for this.  If you were to ask 100 people where the toe is pointing, 100 of them would point in a direction orthogonal to the target line.  That's 90* wrong as far as ball flight is concerned.  90* is about as different as you can get in golf, hence useless for conversation.

[Nutter]

Originally Posted by Sterling Styx

Just about anyone can drive 300+ if they find that zone where club sweet spot, swing speed, and angle intersect; the  problems are controlling it and replicating it.Remember most long-ball record holders have not and will not ever play golf at the pro level.

I think we all agree just about anyone with a good swing can drive it 300+

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Sterling Styx

Just about anyone can drive 300+ if they find that zone where club sweet spot, swing speed, and angle intersect; the problems are controlling it and replicating it.Remember most long-ball record holders have not and will not ever play golf at the pro level.

The problem is also producing it in the first place.

Originally Posted by Nutter

I think we all agree just about anyone with a good swing can drive it 300+

That doesn't mean anything until you define what a "good swing" is. If you define it as "a swing that can produce a 300 yard drive", then obviously everyone would agree. :-) But a very, very small percentage of golfers has such a swing.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Nutter

I think we all agree just about anyone with a good swing can drive it 300+

Agreed!

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

That doesn't mean anything until you define what a "good swing" is. If you define it as "a swing that can produce a 300 yard drive", then obviously everyone would agree. :-) But a very, very small percentage of golfers has such a swing.

I am hoping he was being sarcastic, so that I can "thumbs up" his post

[Beachcomber]

I'm listening to Pandora Radio... And The Verve 'Urban Hymns' is playing.  It made me think of this thread.  That's all.

[lobbob2]

ok.Lets clear this up. the clubface has a toe, a face and a heel. It is easier for a golfer to see the toe rather than the face when he is swinging. toe pointed to right ball goes right.pointed left ball goes left. swing at half speed and you can easily verify this for yourself.A player who knows this then can work the ball in different directions. just like Bubba.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by lobbob2

ok.Lets clear this up. the clubface has a toe, a face and a heel. It is easier for a golfer to see the toe rather than the face when he is swinging. toe pointed to right ball goes right.pointed left ball goes left. swing at half speed and you can easily verify this for yourself.A player who knows this then can work the ball in different directions. just like Bubba.

Why don't you post a rudimentary diagram of your unversally understood termimology. I thought I knew what you meant when you first said it, but that was before you started explain it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I thought I knew what you meant when you first said it, but that was before you started explain it.

Yeah... what he said.

Most people, probably north of 99%, are simply okay with saying the clubface points somewhere. The toe is a rounded edge or a corner, technically speaking.

[Chas]

> 99.95% (+/- 0.01%)

Maybe it's just me but the "toe" points in a direction precisely 90 degrees from the direction of the clubface.  Thusly, if a ball travels exactly in the direction of the toe (theoretically impossible in zero wind), then it has made infinitessimally small contact with the pointy end of the clubhead.  But, vectors being vectors, it will have infinitessimally low velocity as a result.

\lecture

hmmm, I've hit one or two shots like that come to think of it .....

OP question:  clubhead speed is mostly about lag, as is the speed of a tennis serve.  It has little to do with strength, everything to do with timing/leverage/pivot points.  I see plenty of young golfers on the range, and sometimes on the course, with a ton of lag.  They hit the ball a looooong way, but usually they don't have much of a clue where it will end up.  My instructor (C.I. at the local Executive course, a very experience and patient man ....)  tells me he has rarely seen an old fart like me hit with so much lag.  I paraphrase.  Maybe I'll post some video sometime if I can just isolate the lag and not show anything else I'm doing .... .

But sadly this fact has not yet resulted in a round below 80 - and not because said C.I. is not good at teaching the short game.  Pitiable.

[saevel25]

Quote:

Maybe it's just me but the "toe" points in a direction precisely 90 degrees from the direction of the clubface.  Thusly, if a ball travels exactly in the direction of the toe (theoretically impossible in zero wind), then it has made infinitessimally small contact with the pointy end of the clubhead.  But, vectors being vectors, it will have infinitessimally low velocity as a result.

Thats actually wrong with regard to Hybrids, woods, and drivers, because the face is rounded. This is because they added a gear effect to the club so that if you hit if off the toe the ball will produce more draw spin and keep the ball in play. There is a great website on this, the guy did the math and proved that this is the case. So its not 90 degrees

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Thats actually wrong with regard to Hybrids, woods, and drivers, because the face is rounded. This is because they added a gear effect to the club so that if you hit if off the toe the ball will produce more draw spin and keep the ball in play. There is a great website on this, the guy did the math and proved that this is the case. So its not 90 degrees

So, what is it 88?  92?  His point (and 99.95% +/- 0.01 of everybody in golf) is that the toe doesn't "point" anywhere remotely close to the direction the ball is going.  Unless, like he said, you are able to deflect the ball off the edge of the toe such that it falls sideways off the tee.  (I think I have done that before)

Also, if you really wanted to get anal and split hairs, I would say that what you are talking about is the angle of the clubface out near the toe, not the toe itself.  Just sayin' ...

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by lobbob2

ok.Lets clear this up. the clubface has a toe, a face and a heel. It is easier for a golfer to see the toe rather than the face when he is swinging. toe pointed to right ball goes right.pointed left ball goes left. swing at half speed and you can easily verify this for yourself.A player who knows this then can work the ball in different directions. just like Bubba.

I reiterate... the toe should point at 90 degrees away from the player, and 90 degrees to the direction the ball takes at impact.  No amount of discussion  can possibly change that fact.  The clubface points down the line the ball starts on.  Your constant reference to the toe just confuses the issue.  The toe has nothing to do with it.  The FACE is either open or closed.   If I hit with a closed face the ball will start left of my swing path and should draw or hook, but it still doesn't go where the toe is pointed.  The toe is still essentially pointed 90 (or maybe 87-89 degrees) degrees away from me.

[broomhandle]

Originally Posted by lobbob2

ok.Lets clear this up. the clubface has a toe, a face and a heel. It is easier for a golfer to see the toe rather than the face when he is swinging. toe pointed to right ball goes right.pointed left ball goes left. swing at half speed and you can easily verify this for yourself.A player who knows this then can work the ball in different directions. just like Bubba.

Makes sense to me. It's non-standard and unnecessary but internally consistent.

Straight toe means pointing directly away from the player therefore face is square by normal terminology.

Toe right means right of straight away from the player - open face.

Toe left means left of straight away from player - closed face.

I don't love it but it ain't difficult to get.

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by broomhandle

Makes sense to me. It's non-standard and unnecessary but internally consistent.

Straight toe means pointing directly away from the player therefore face is square by normal terminology.

Toe right means right of straight away from the player - open face.

Toe left means left of straight away from player - closed face.

I don't love it but it ain't difficult to get.

I think it makes sense too.  I can see how someone might think its easier to imagine turning the toe to turning the clubface.

[HoboTrekker]

reminds me of arguing on a tee about whether a right to left flight for a left hander is a fade or a draw after Id just told my left handed player to hit a fade off the bunkers on the right

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by broomhandle

Makes sense to me. It's non-standard and unnecessary but internally consistent.

Straight toe means pointing directly away from the player therefore face is square by normal terminology.

Toe right means right of straight away from the player - open face.

Toe left means left of straight away from player - closed face.

I don't love it but it ain't difficult to get.

Originally Posted by dsc123

I think it makes sense too.  I can see how someone might think its easier to imagine turning the toe to turning the clubface.

It's not so much that it "makes sense," but rather "you know what he means," which are two separate things entirely.  Both of you, myself, and a large quantity of golfers in the world and on this site would hear a teacher say that and go "OK, that's a weird way of saying it, but I know what he's getting at."

On the other hand, and I think this is where it bothers the teaching types the most, if you say that to a green beginning, they are far more likely to be completely baffled by it, and possibly steered the wrong way.  Whereas, if you say the ball goes where the clubface is pointing, that is a lot easier for everybody to understand, and just about impossible to misinterpret.

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

On the other hand, and I think this is where it bothers the teaching types the most, if you say that to a green beginning, they are far more likely to be completely baffled by it, and possibly steered the wrong way.  Whereas, if you say the ball goes where the clubface is pointing, that is a lot easier for everybody to understand, and just about impossible to misinterpret.

Yeah, I get the insistence on being correct, to a degree.  But I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who is told "point the toe in the direction that you want the ball to start" who would then jab at it with the corner of the club face or try some awkward swing perpendicular to their aim line.

[Jwat381]

I think this thread should be locked to everyone other than Jimbo posting his Trackman results. Or DarkSun posting more vids of Wii golf.