Political Correctness - How Far Should it Go? Should the Washington Redskins change their name?

[MS256]

I think that if you read up on the origin of the word you would see that it was originally used in a negative way. Some people may not find it offensive, but that doesn't mean the offensive interpretation is new.

And it doesn't matter how the word was used in 1930. Many words were commonly used then that are now taboo.

Also, no court can do anything about this. There is no civil liability. However, Congress could threaten to revoke the nfl's status as a nonprofit. Then the league would force Snyder to change it.

A word is only offensive if the person saying it intends for it to be offensive or if the person hearing it takes it that way. Native Americans referred to themselves as Redskins before some white people that hated them started using it in a derogatory manner.

On the job I have been called an SOB more times than I could count and never in a hostile or negative manner. Never made me mad in the least. On the street if somebody calls me an SOB in a hostile manner they better be ducking as soon as they say it. Almost any word can be offensive if it is delivered in and offensive manner.

Maybe there are still some people that have racist feelings toward Native Americans but I have never known any of those people (not one). Never heard a single person in my life call somebody a Redskin in any kind of derogatory manner at all. In fact I can't remember ever hearing anybody say anything negative about Native Americans at all. If I did I would remember it because I would have taken offense to it myself.

There were a few full blooded Cherokee kids that went to the school I went to. Not only was there absolutely no racism toward them but I think they were actually more popular because they were Cherokee. My brother dated one of them all the way through high school. Her part time job was to dress in Native American attire and take pictures with tourists at a local tour cave. I highly doubt if any of those tourists would have gone out of their way to come to this area to learn about Sequoia and have their pictures taken with a Cherokee girl if they had bad feelings about it.

Some people today are just looking for a reason to be offended and pissed off, and others make a living out of reminding people that they should be pissed off, even if they aren't.

[Slice of Life]

Some people today are just looking for a reason to be offended and pissed off, and others make a living out of reminding people that they should be pissed off, even if they aren't.

Hammer...nail...head. Bingo.

[dsc123]

Some people today are just looking for a reason to be offended and pissed off, and others make a living out of reminding people that they should be pissed off, even if they aren't.

Hammer...nail...head. Bingo.

You guys are unbelievable.  You can't honestly believe that there are not large numbers of Native Americans who are offended by the word "redskins."  Anecdotes aside, large organizations that represent Native Americans are vehemently opposed to it.  Even if you personally know some who are not offended, that doesn't mean others can't be.

[Phil McGleno]

Some people are also rightfully offended,-Minimizes their feelings to say stupid shit like "they're looking to be offended."--Fact: "Redskin" has been offensive and derogatory for over a hundred years. [quote name="Slice of Life" url="/t/70604/political-correctness-how-far-should-it-go-should-the-washington-redskins-change-their-name/180#post_1003883"] Hammer...nail...head. Bingo. [/quote] Let's rename the team Washington Niggers.-Then when that fails we'll call them the Washington Chinks.

[newtogolf]

Good examples!  Almost as good as the foxnews article that actually disproved your point yesterday.

Atlanta hasn't used that logo in 15 years because its offensive.

Cleveland takes a lot of heat for that logo.  As @jamo mentioned earlier, they seem to be phasing it out, using a hat with a big C on it instead.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Wahoo#Controversy

All I did was search images for Atlanta Braves, I guess no one else got the memo it's 15 years old.

[billchao]

You guys are unbelievable.  You can't honestly believe that there are not large numbers of Native Americans who are offended by the word "redskins."  Anecdotes aside, large organizations that represent Native Americans are vehemently opposed to it.  Even if you personally know some who are not offended, that doesn't mean others can't be.

I agree with you, anecdotes don't prove anything. I knew some black people who weren't offended by the n word; doesn't make it appropriate to use. [quote name="Phil McGleno" url="/t/70604/political-correctness-how-far-should-it-go-should-the-washington-redskins-change-their-name/180#post_1003887"]Some people are also rightfully offended,-Minimizes their feelings to say stupid shit like "they're looking to be offended."--Fact: "Redskin" has been offensive and derogatory for over a hundred years. Let's rename the team Washington Niggers.-Then when that fails we'll call them the Washington Chinks.[/quote]C'mon, we all know Chinamen can't play football ;-)

[dsc123]

All I did was search images for Atlanta Braves, I guess no one else got the memo it's 15 years old.

But here's what I'm getting at.  You've made two points:

First you said that some Native Americans don't feel that its offensive, and until you see that many of them do, you won't listen to the PC Police or support changing the name.  But we've shown, both through the foxnews article you linked to, and with other links (the commercial, statements by Navajo Nation Council, the NACI, etc.) that large numbers of Native Americans do find it offensive.  So what's keeping you from changing your mind?

Second, you tried to show that other teams also use racist symbols, but one was abanonded long ago and the other is probably second only to the Redskins in controversy.  So that actually shows that yes, sports teams should and have removed offensive logos.  So again, what's keeping you from changing your mind?

I don't mean to come across like a jerk, I am genuinely interested in hearing your response to these.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS256

Some people today are just looking for a reason to be offended and pissed off, and others make a living out of reminding people that they should be pissed off, even if they aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Hammer...nail...head. Bingo.

You guys are unbelievable.  You can't honestly believe that there are not large numbers of Native Americans who are offended by the word "redskins."  Anecdotes aside, large organizations that represent Native Americans are vehemently opposed to it.  Even if you personally know some who are not offended, that doesn't mean others can't be.

Some people are also rightfully offended,-Minimizes their feelings to say stupid shit like "they're looking to be offended."--Fact: "Redskin" has been offensive and derogatory for over a hundred years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Hammer...nail...head. Bingo.

Let's rename the team Washington Niggers.-Then when that fails we'll call them the Washington Chinks.

Honest question for @dsc123 and @Phil McGleno .  If the term "Redskin" has been offensive for over a hundred years.  Why are we hearing about it now?

[MS256]

Some people are also rightfully offended,-Minimizes their feelings to say stupid shit like "they're looking to be offended."--Fact: "Redskin" has been offensive and derogatory for over a hundred years.

Let's rename the team Washington Niggers.-Then when that fails we'll call them the Washington Chinks.

I have never in my life heard Redskin used in an offensive manner. I certainly can't say the same for the words you keep listing.

Maybe you have and have and look at it differently.

[dsc123]

Honest question for @dsc123  and @Phil McGleno .  If the term "Redskin" has been offensive for over a hundred years.  Why are we hearing about it now?

Because its still in use.

You mean why didn't we hear about it sooner?  A couple of points.  First, we shouldn't let our future be dictated by the mistakes of our past.  Second, its not new.  People have protested the name for at least the past 15 years--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Redskins_name_controversy#Protests.  Third, thankfully, society progresses.  At one time, blacks were slaves.  Then men realized that was horrible.  But they kept calling them the n-word for a while.  In fact, it was commonly used in the 30s, when the redskins were named.

Perhaps the better question is why hasn't the r-word been phased out just like the n-word?

I have never in my life heard Redskin used in an offensive manner. I certainly can't say the same for the words you keep listing.

Maybe you have and have and look at it differently.

But you don't deny that it is used in that manner, right?  You don't think the dictionaries are wrong, right?

I've never really heard it used that way either.  But the fact that I live amongst people who are not racists doesn't mean racists don't exist.

I should say that I've never heard the words used honorifically, either.

[newtogolf]

But here's what I'm getting at.  You've made two points:

First you said that some Native Americans don't feel that its offensive, and until you see that many of them do, you won't listen to the PC Police or support changing the name.  But we've shown, both through the foxnews article you linked to, and with other links (the commercial, statements by Navajo Nation Council, the NACI, etc.) that large numbers of Native Americans do find it offensive.  So what's keeping you from changing your mind?

Second, you tried to show that other teams also use racist symbols, but one was abanonded long ago and the other is probably second only to the Redskins in controversy.  So that actually shows that yes, sports teams should and have removed offensive logos.  So again, what's keeping you from changing your mind?

I don't mean to come across like a jerk, I am genuinely interested in hearing your response to these.

I guess you missed this part of the article I posted and only read the part you wanted;

A leader of the Navajo Code Talkers who appeared at a Washington Redskins home football game said Wednesday the team name is a symbol of loyalty and courage -- not a slur as asserted by critics who want it changed. Roy Hawthorne, 87, of Lupton, Ariz., was one of four Code Talkers honored for their service in World War II during the Monday night game against the San Francisco 49ers.  Hawthorne, vice president of the Navajo Code Talkers Association, said the group's trip was paid for by the Redskins. The four men met briefly with team owner Dan Snyder but did not discuss the name, Hawthorne said.   Still, he said he would endorse the name if asked, and the televised appearance in which three of the Indians wore Redskins jackets spoke for itself.

My other point was that other team names and logo's fail the PC test that the Redskins do, so if we're going to pursue the Redskins, then let's also address the rest of the teams which I listed.  The new Braves logo is of a warriors axe used by Indians in the past, still not positive imagery imo.

My point was / is that not all American Indians are offended by the name.  There should be a national vote that only Native Americans are permitted to participate in and they should determine which team names and logos they do and don't find offensive and then changes should be made to reflect their wishes.   I would hope the offensive teams support their wishes and we do what we can to respect them.

I think we've seen that the N word is deemed offensive when it's used by non African Americans but that within their own culture they seem quite comfortable using the term as does @Phil McGleno

[Gunther]

I guess you missed this part of the article I posted and only read the part you wanted; A leader of the Navajo Code Talkers who appeared at a Washington Redskins home football game said Wednesday the team name is a symbol of loyalty and courage -- not a slur as asserted by critics who want it changed. Roy Hawthorne, 87, of Lupton, Ariz., was one of four Code Talkers honored for their service in World War II during the Monday night game against the San Francisco 49ers.  Hawthorne, vice president of the Navajo Code Talkers Association, said the group's trip was paid for by the Redskins. The four men met briefly with team owner Dan Snyder but did not discuss the name, Hawthorne said.   Still, he said he would endorse the name if asked, and the televised appearance in which three of the Indians wore Redskins jackets spoke for itself. I think we've seen that the N word is deemed offensive when it's used by non African Americans but that within their own culture they seem quite comfortable using the term as does @Phil McGleno

I noticed that. And we're the morons? Phil, you've offended more people with those few posts than are truly offended by the names of the Redskins. Funny shit.

[boogielicious]

I guess you missed this part of the article I posted and only read the part you wanted;

A leader of the Navajo Code Talkers who appeared at a Washington Redskins home football game said Wednesday the team name is a symbol of loyalty and courage -- not a slur as asserted by critics who want it changed.  Roy Hawthorne, 87, of Lupton, Ariz., was one of four Code Talkers honored for their service in World War II during the Monday night game against the San Francisco 49ers.  Hawthorne, vice president of the Navajo Code Talkers Association, said the group's trip was paid for by the Redskins. The four men met briefly with team owner Dan Snyder but did not discuss the name, Hawthorne said.   Still, he said he would endorse the name if asked, and the televised appearance in which three of the Indians wore Redskins jackets spoke for itself.

My other point was that other team names and logo's fail the PC test that the Redskins do, so if we're going to pursue the Redskins, then let's also address the rest of the teams which I listed.  The new Braves logo is of a warriors axe used by Indians in the past, still not positive imagery imo.

My point was / is that not all American Indians are offended by the name.  There should be a national vote that only Native Americans are permitted to participate in and they should determine which team names and logos they do and don't find offensive and then changes should be made to reflect their wishes.   I would hope the offensive teams support their wishes and we do what we can to respect them.

I think we've seen that the N word is deemed offensive when it's used by non African Americans but that within their own culture they seem quite comfortable using the term as does @Phil McGleno

Not all African American's are offended by the n-word, but I dare you to use it in public around African Americans.

You bring up one group of Native American's who aren't offended, but it appears the majority are.  The fact that Snyder may be buying favoritism is beside the point.

[Phil McGleno]

Guy wrote a book named "Nigger."-Is he bad too?-You seem to have trouble separating legitimate uses of the word with ways that demean belittle and offend.[quote name="Gunther" url="/t/70604/political-correctness-how-far-should-it-go-should-the-washington-redskins-change-their-name/180#post_1003915"] I noticed that. And we're the morons? Phil, you've offended more people with those few posts than are truly offended by the names of the Redskins. Funny shit.[/quote] Its a joke to keep saying "n-word" likeas if THAT is not offensive.-Its just a word. You seem to miss the point that Redskin is as offensive to an Indian but have no problem typing that word.--Not hard to grasp but I can see how youve missed it. Nuance does not seem to be a strong suit in your arguments.

[Gunther]

Guy wrote a book named "Nigger."-Is he bad too?-You seem to have trouble separating legitimate uses of the word with ways that demean belittle and offend. Its a joke to keep saying "n-word" likeas if THAT is not offensive.-Its just a word. You seem to miss the point that Redskin is as offensive to an Indian but have no problem typing that word.--Not hard to grasp but I can see how youve missed it. Nuance does not seem to be a strong suit in your arguments.

I know, I know, s'ok for you to use the term, nuanced or not, because you're on the "right" side of the argument. God forbid if anyone on this side uses it. So typical.

[Phil McGleno]

So totally not what I said.--Redskin and Nigger are equally bad terms. You would not support a team named Washington Niggers but because youre ignorant to the offense many take to the word Redskin you think its okay.--Thats your point in a nutshell. Theyre words. When youre discussing the word what else do you do? You type it.-Just like the book the guy wrote.--Look it up on Amazon. The Nazi symbol offends many people but if youre doing a documentary or talking about it you show it.[quote name="Gunther" url="/t/70604/political-correctness-how-far-should-it-go-should-the-washington-redskins-change-their-name/180#post_1003928"] I know, I know, s'ok for you to use the term, nuanced or not, because you're on the "right" side of the argument. God forbid if anyone on this side uses it. So typical.[/quote]

[iacas]

Golf is on right now, guys. Just thought I'd point that out…

Also, I'm moving this thread to the Grill Room. It's not really about sports.

[Lihu]

Not all African American's are offended by the n-word, but I dare you to use it in public around African Americans.

You bring up one group of Native American's who aren't offended, but it appears the majority are.  The fact that Snyder may be buying favoritism is beside the point.

It depends upon their economic status.

Most of the Asians, Latinos, African American and other races that I know who are from a more affluent status are not as easily offended by any such statements, but it does make everyone feel a little "uncomfortable" if any slurs do come up. Mostly, the relationship with the individual that made the slur.

On the flip side. Many of the less fortunate people I know, react very angrily towards the same words because offensive words are intended to incite. In some cases, people turn the other way, in other cases, the intended reaction generally ensues.

The more affluent people tend to ignore, while less affluent ones get angered more. This is likely because it means more to them, because they have less of everything else.

It behooves me that anyone could torment someone already less fortunate in such a bad manner. It just goes against everything I believe in.

This all being said, I am still not that sure that the "Redskins" is that offensive. However, if it does offend anyone it should simply be changed.