Tiger Woods Master Catch-All Discussion

[nevets88]

The No Laying Up guys summarize his life in the past 10 years. What a crazy ride.

https://nolayingup.com/2018/08/14/episode-17-journey-tiger/

[Zeph]

9 hours ago, rehmwa said:

pretty much my point

meh - if I hit 18 fairways hitting draws and fades and straight shots mixed all day.  No one will accuse me of any kind of miss.  When I miss right, it's a miss to the right - regardless of whether it's a hard push or over-faded.  Ditto left.

Frequency is also something to consider. One miss isn't what we're talking about here. We are talking about someone standing on the tee at nearly every hole and being uncertain where to aim because he knows he could end up hitting both a hook or slice. If he aims left and the hooks comes out, he's in trouble. If the slice comes, he might even be in the fairway.

[MacDutch]

It might even be a multi way miss. He was spreading it all over the place. It was incredible and Tigerish he still was in contention and finished second.

[saevel25]

15 hours ago, rehmwa said:

meh - if I hit 18 fairways hitting draws and fades and straight shots mixed all day.  No one will accuse me of any kind of miss.  When I miss right, it's a miss to the right - regardless of whether it's a hard push or over-faded.  Ditto left.

You could get lucky enough that get 18 fairways with a two way miss.

A two-way miss is not being able to control face to path, causing a miss to both sides of the hole in which you do not know what the miss will be.

This is bad, the likelihood of you hitting 18 fairways having a two way miss is bad. It's more likely you will hit more fairways in regulation with a consistent ball flight. If you have a two-way miss, then your control is so bad that the misses are not going to be small enough to get you 18 fairways. The premise you are throwing out here, were the results only matter, doesn't touch the fact that you are glossing over the severity that a two-way miss typically causes.

[DeadMan]

14 hours ago, nevets88 said:

The No Laying Up guys summarize his life in the past 10 years. What a crazy ride.

https://nolayingup.com/2018/08/14/episode-17-journey-tiger/

This was both really interesting and hilarious at the same time. The amount of stuff that Tiger's done through in the past decade is crazy.

I wonder if we'll ever get a full accounting of how his addiction to painkillers influenced this. A lot of this is so ridiculous that it doesn't make much sense, but it might make more sense if you add in being under the influence of painkillers. It's never going to happen, but a full accounting of Tiger's life would be super interesting (and also probably extremely sad).

[rehmwa]

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

You could get lucky enough that get 18 fairways with a two way miss.

A two-way miss is not being able to control face to path, causing a miss to both sides of the hole in which you do not know what the miss will be.

This is bad, the likelihood of you hitting 18 fairways having a two way miss is bad. It's more likely you will hit more fairways in regulation with a consistent ball flight. If you have a two-way miss, then your control is so bad that the misses are not going to be small enough to get you 18 fairways. The premise you are throwing out here, were the results only matter, doesn't touch the fact that you are glossing over the severity that a two-way miss typically causes.

As the other poster noted, it's semantics.  I have a definition I use (a miss is a miss).  You are applying the cause (a specific reason for the miss) as the definition - I have no issue with that also as it pretty much does explain those misses most of the time.  There's not really a debate here yet people keep trying.  For the way I keep and apply stats, I'm good with what I'm doing (for now).

Frankly, if you are missing to both sides for any reason, one takes note of that and then goes a deeper level and figures out why.  Anything else is conclusion without looking at data.  After that point is why the premise isn't glossing over anything.  Not before.  This is why I keep a very open definition.

So if a person is just really bad a alignment, and misses both ways but has a consistent shot shape....then that's not severe?  I'd hate to gloss over that scenario.

Edited August 16, 2018 by rehmwa

[saevel25]

7 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

So if a person is just really bad a alignment, and misses both ways but has a consistent shot shape....then that's not severe?

Doesn't happen that way.

A person just doesn't subconsciously aim left, then right. They will aim one way or another, not both.

[rehmwa]

3 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Doesn't happen that way.

A person just doesn't subconsciously aim left, then right. They will aim one way or another, not both.

don't play with a lot of beginners?  I've seen people line up based just on crooked tee markers alone.

anyway - odd little semantic diversion - good discussion overall.  I'm with you more than you think on how a 2 way miss comes about.  Much better tangent than some.  take care

Edited August 16, 2018 by rehmwa

[Ty_Webb]

38 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

As the other poster noted, it's semantics.  I have a definition I use (a miss is a miss).  You are applying the cause (a specific reason for the miss) as the definition - I have no issue with that also as it pretty much does explain those misses most of the time.  There's not really a debate here yet people keep trying.  For the way I keep and apply stats, I'm good with what I'm doing (for now).

Frankly, if you are missing to both sides for any reason, one takes note of that and then goes a deeper level and figures out why.  Anything else is conclusion without looking at data.  After that point is why the premise isn't glossing over anything.  Not before.  This is why I keep a very open definition.

So if a person is just really bad a alignment, and misses both ways but has a consistent shot shape....then that's not severe?  I'd hate to gloss over that scenario.

I’m not certain because I’m not him, but I would be shocked if tiger didn’t mean he was hooking it and slicing it when he said he had a two way miss on the range. 

Tiger saying he had a two way miss meant that he didn’t know if the ball was going left or right of where he was aiming. If it’s always going right of where he’s aiming then he can aim left and get the ball in play. If it’s sometimes going left and sometimes going right then he can’t do that. That’s why he said it. Semantics or not. He didn’t mean he was worried he would miss fairways left and right. He knows when he goes out that he’s going to do that even if he’s striping it. 

[turtleback]

I watched the YouTube of all his final round shots.  On the front 9 every draw was pulled and every fade was pushed.  Or every pull was drawn and every push was faded.  Call it whatever you like.

More interesting to me is that it confirmed something I noticed during the live broadcasts.  He seems to have changed the rhythm of his putting stroke.  In the past, once he did the final set of his feet it was pretty much 1-2-putt.  Now he is taking quite a bit longer time between the final setting of his feet and starting the putting stroke.

Anyone else notice this?  Has he been doing this all season?

[brocks]

1 hour ago, turtleback said:

I watched the YouTube of all his final round shots.  On the front 9 every draw was pulled and every fade was pushed.  Or every pull was drawn and every push was faded.  Call it whatever you like.

More interesting to me is that it confirmed something I noticed during the live broadcasts.  He seems to have changed the rhythm of his putting stroke.  In the past, once he did the final set of his feet it was pretty much 1-2-putt.  Now he is taking quite a bit longer time between the final setting of his feet and starting the putting stroke.

Anyone else notice this?  Has he been doing this all season?

I'm not seeing the 1-2-putt you are in the past.  Youtube has the final rounds of the 1997 Masters and the 2000 PGA, among others, and it seems to me that for all but very short and very crucial putts, there's 3-4 seconds between setting his feet and starting the stroke.  A bit shorter for trivial putts, a bit longer for difficult putts.

I have YoutubeTV for the Golf Channel, and while I'm not thrilled with its interface, it does have the benefit of storing everything you watch for nine months.  I looked at the Genesis Open from Feb of this year, and it looked like he was still waiting 3-4 seconds for most putts.

But starting with the Quicken Loans, which is when he switched to the mallet putter, it looks more like 6-7 seconds for a typical putt.   So up to twice as long for a typical putt, which seems to confirm your observation.

[turtleback]

4 minutes ago, brocks said:

 

But starting with the Quicken Loans, which is when he switched to the mallet putter, it looks more like 6-7 seconds for a typical putt.   So up to twice as long for a typical putt, which seems to confirm your observation.

Thanks.  That eliminates one piece of the evidence that I'm going crazy.  😁

[brocks]

1 minute ago, turtleback said:

Thanks.  That eliminates one piece of the evidence that I'm going crazy.

I know how you feel, but I prefer to think it's the country that's going crazy, not me.  I'm hoping that if Tiger starts winning, the universe will start making sense again.

[saevel25]

34 minutes ago, brocks said:

I know how you feel, but I prefer to think it's the country that's going crazy, not me.  I'm hoping that if Tiger starts winning, the universe will start making sense again.

Insert eye rolling emoji

45 minutes ago, brocks said:

I have YoutubeTV for the Golf Channel, and while I'm not thrilled with its interface, it does have the benefit of storing everything you watch for nine months.  I looked at the Genesis Open from Feb of this year, and it looked like he was still waiting 3-4 seconds for most putts.

But starting with the Quicken Loans, which is when he switched to the mallet putter, it looks more like 6-7 seconds for a typical putt.   So up to twice as long for a typical putt, which seems to confirm your observation.

That is interesting. I wonder if it's something he's been working on. He's putting has gotten pretty good. He's in the top half in strokes gained putting, and that is with his garbage putting early in the season.

 

[Ty_Webb]

Here is what I think his putting routine is:

stand behind the ball and visualize it.

Step in (starts here)

address next to the ball

look up at the hole

two practice strokes

put the putter behind the ball

step up to it

settle the feet

look at the hole

Pause

fire

he does the same thing every time except on tap ins. Same is true of his long game. It’s a slightly different routine from the putting but it takes exactly the same amount of time every time. Within about 3-4 tenths of a second each time he does it. Incredible. He reckons others change it about a bit and it means they’re unsettled. Watch videos of him and time it. 

[turtleback]

2 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

Here is what I think his putting routine is:

stand behind the ball and visualize it.

Step in (starts here)

address next to the ball

look up at the hole

two practice strokes

put the putter behind the ball

step up to it

settle the feet

look at the hole

Pause

fire

he does the same thing every time except on tap ins. Same is true of his long game. It’s a slightly different routine from the putting but it takes exactly the same amount of time every time. Within about 3-4 tenths of a second each time he does it. Incredible. He reckons others change it about a bit and it means they’re unsettled. Watch videos of him and time it. 

Yes.  But the issue was whether recently a change occurred, that change being a lengthening of that Pause step.  brocks seems to empirically verify my observation that it had changed.  I don't know if you just missed it but brocks just posted that he HAD timed it and it HAD changed, with the length of the pause doubling starting at the Quicken.

[iacas]

Saw this and enjoyed watching it:

 

[saevel25]

Maybe off-topic. Johnny Miller was talking about how far out he was aiming on the Saturday putt on 18. He said something like he's looking out 2 and half feet out. He was a bit off on that guess. 😉