Peyton Manning the Greatest QB?

[Jakester23]

I thought it was 2006 & 2009?

[meenman]

I thought it was 2006 & 2009?

correct again, but february of 2006 is (technically) more than 8 years ago

[Abu3baid]

Randy Moss was probably the 2nd best WR to ever play the game.  The only years Brady put up big numbers were when he had Moss.  Gronkowski might be the most talented recieving TE ever.

Demarious Thomas' rec yards tripled when Manning came.  Through 6 games, Eric Decker has 320 yards rec without Peyton.  Julius Thomas had 0 TDs before Peyton Manning came to town.

Julius Thomas only played one game in 2011 and didn't even play in 2012, so having 0 TD before PM isn't really surprising..

Demarious Thomas was injured most of the time prior to PM and had to play with the likes of Tim Tebow, and same goes for Erik Decker.  I think only time will tell how good these receivers actually are w/ or wo/ Manning at some point.

Other than those two names you mentioned for Brady, it is a cliff fall to the next guy really.. Brown maybe, but that's about it.. Branch & Givens both ended up failing when they moved to another team..

Anyway, I still would take Manning over Brady!

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

That depends on whether or not he won any breakfast bowls or lunch bowls.

That new Peyton Commercial for Nationwide right?

"chicken-parm, you taste so good"

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS256

SMH. Going back to Bart Starr is just something to show how impossible it is to use statistics to judge quarterbacks from different eras. It's an entirely different game.

Sure it is, they actually have Passer Rating for him. Which is an all inclusive stat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Not in Super Bowls!   Just saying!  I love how when Peyton wins, it is because of Peyton.  But when his teams lose, it is because of the rest of the team.

Well I can say that with Indy because they had an average to below average defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Not in Super Bowls!   Just saying!  I love how when Peyton wins, it is because of Peyton.  But when his teams lose, it is because of the rest of the team.

The defensive stats I posted paint the picture.

I'm saying he isn't solely responsible for either. Again, the fact that the Patriots went 11-5 with Cassel under center says it all...

His defenses didn't throw pick sixes in the SB!!!!!! I just marvel at the excuses for Peyton not winning more in the playoffs.  I think he is a great QB, but he has to bear a good deal of the responsibility for his performance in the post season because he touches the ball the most. BTW, the Patriots went from 16-0 to 11-5 (four more losses) without Brady.  That is a big drop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

, question was best QB NOT best Post-Season QB. Bart Starr had a near 1-1 TD to INT ratio. His Passer Rating 20 points lower on his career. Sorry, but NO!

SMH. Going back to Bart Starr is just something to show how impossible it is to use statistics to judge quarterbacks from different eras. It's an entirely different game.

Defenses could do everything short of homicide both on the quarterback and the receivers back when Starr played. The quarterbacks of today would have nowhere close to the stats they have if they and their receivers weren't so protected. I'm pretty sure Manning and Brady would say the same thing.

We can never know who was best in football between eras judging by stats because football is less hesitant to change rules than most sports.

Nothing wrong with that and many rule changes have not only been necessary to protect players but have increased fan appeal because fans like to see offense. Throwing away the historical importance of stats is something that football has been willing to do.

Excellent point.  BTW, Brady has said Montana is the best of all time bar none.

[dsc123]

His defenses didn't throw pick sixes in the SB!!!!!!    I just marvel at the excuses for Peyton not winning more in the playoffs.  I think he is a great QB, but he has to bear a good deal of the responsibility for his performance in the post season because he touches the ball the most.

Brady has 32 turnovers in 26 playoff games, 31 if we don't count the Tom Brady Rule.  Did his defense throw those?

The perception is that Brady is clutch because he won 3 times when he was basically a young Trent Dilfer and relied on everyone around him to get the job done.  From there, all rationality goes out the window.  Its actually a widely held belief that Tom Brady is clutch in the playoffs and Peyton chokes...well..its true that their playoff performances are not even close....but its not what you think....

Brady vs Manning in the playoffs

Brady - 62%, 247 yards per game, 43 TD's, 31 turnovers.  QBRs 60, 61, 4, 8, 75, 57, 70.  Passer ratings 77, 84, 109, 92, 77, 96, 49, 89, 100, 84, 87

Manning - 64%, 286 yards per game, 37 TD's, 28 turnovers, QBR 61, 77, 75, 80, 74, 56, 77.  Passer Rating 62, 82, 31, 106, 107, 90, 70, 98, 90, 99, 108, 88, 94.

Brady is better by a tiny margin on turnover ratio--1.39 TDs to turnovers for Brady, 1.32 for Peyton.  The difference is basically the Tom Brady Rule.  Everything else favors Peyton.  Peyton threw for more yards and slightly higher completion percentage.   Peyton topped a 90 passer rating in 8 playoff years, Brady 4 times.

Then look at QBR which is basically a measure of how much the player helped his team win the game.  50 is an average quarterback, and 75 is a league leader.  Since 2006 (when the stat starts) Brady posted a 75 once and a 70 once.  Peyton has a 77, 75, 80, 74, 77--so he played, in the playoffs, like the best QB in the regular season 5 times, to Brady's 2.  His others were 31, 62, 56, where Brady's were 4, 8, 57, 60, 61.  A 4 and an 8!  He caused 2 first round exits by himself, and had 3 games were he was good but not great.  Manning was bad once, good but not great twice, and terrific 5 times.

And look at the Trent Dilfer years.  Manning wasn't in the playoffs in 2001.  Lets look at the others.

In 2003, Brady and Peyton each played 3 playoff games, but the Pats won the superbowl.  This is one of the years that evidence Brady's greatness compared to Peyton, right?  Peyton completed 65% of his passes, for an average of 8.91 yards per completion, 306 yards per game, with 9 TDs, 4 turnovers, and a QB rating of 106.  Brady complted 59.5% of his passes, threw 264 years per game, with 5 TDs and 2 turnovers and a QB Rating of 84.5.   Peyton was much better, in the playoffs, in 2003, than Brady.

In 2004, Peyton only played 2 games to Brady's 3.  Peyton--72%, 348 yards per game, 9.28 yards per completion (!!) 4 TDs, 3 turnovers and a rating of 107.4.  Brady - 68%, 195 yards per game, game, 5 TDs, 0 turnovers, and a rating of 92.  I'd say Peyton was better, but even if you value turnovers more than anything and say Brady was better, its slim.

There's really absolutely no comparison between the two.  The playoffs are the only thing Brady lovers hang onto, and he clearly loses to Peyton there.

And let's go off the field.  Peyton Manning nails SNL, does great commercials, and promotes pizza.  Brady cries on espn because poor him got drafted low, and....well...

And the final nail in the coffin, Peyton would never flop.  http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/10/16/6991921/jets-pats-scuffle-tom-brady-flop  That's worth at least 2 rings.

[Golfingdad]

And let's go off the field.  Peyton Manning nails SNL, does great commercials, and promotes pizza.  Brady cries on espn because poor him got drafted low, and....well...

If you combine the first two pictures, it almost looks like he wants to cover his entire body in "Ugg" type materials.

Not really sure, though, what wrong with the last picture.  It's just a sweater. ;)

And the final nail in the coffin, Peyton would never flop.

I agree with your entire post (except for the sweater pic ) until this.  Utter nonsense.  Peyton Manning is the king of trying to gain every single edge possible.  From snapping the ball after the defense makes a substitution while the guy leaving the field is 50 yards from the play but has one foot in bounds to get a cheap 5 yard penalty, to coaching his linemen to "flinch" every time a defensive lineman steps into the neutral zone, to getting an extra yard or two every time he runs by looking like he's about to slide and causing the defender to check up then taking a couple of extra shuffle steps before actually sliding.

And before anybody gets their panties in a wad, I'm certainly not suggesting that any of this is illegal (it's actually quite fastidious) ... just pointing out that neither is falling down when somebody bumps into you.  All of that stuff, I would lump together into the "bush league" category.  And it's why I am confident that if he knew it would work, Peyton would absolutely flop.

[saevel25]

I agree with your entire post (except for the sweater pic ) until this.  Utter nonsense.  Peyton Manning is the king of trying to gain every single edge possible.  From snapping the ball after the defense makes a substitution while the guy leaving the field is 50 yards from the play but has one foot in bounds to get a cheap 5 yard penalty, to coaching his linemen to "flinch" every time a defensive lineman steps into the neutral zone, to getting an extra yard or two every time he runs by looking like he's about to slide and causing the defender to check up then taking a couple of extra shuffle steps before actually sliding.

I have no problem with any of that . I wouldn't call those bush league.

[dsc123]

If you combine the first two pictures, it almost looks like he wants to cover his entire body in "Ugg" type materials.

Not really sure, though, what wrong with the last picture.  It's just a sweater. ;)

I agree with your entire post (except for the sweater pic ) until this.  Utter nonsense.  Peyton Manning is the king of trying to gain every single edge possible.  From snapping the ball after the defense makes a substitution while the guy leaving the field is 50 yards from the play but has one foot in bounds to get a cheap 5 yard penalty, to coaching his linemen to "flinch" every time a defensive lineman steps into the neutral zone, to getting an extra yard or two every time he runs by looking like he's about to slide and causing the defender to check up then taking a couple of extra shuffle steps before actually sliding.

And before anybody gets their panties in a wad, I'm certainly not suggesting that any of this is illegal (it's actually quite fastidious) ... just pointing out that neither is falling down when somebody bumps into you.  All of that stuff, I would lump together into the "bush league" category.  And it's why I am confident that if he knew it would work, Peyton would absolutely flop.

I think flopping is different then the things you describe, but I can see why you would disagree.

That sweater is terrible!

[phan52]

I'd say Peyton is missing one more Super Bowl before he gets the GOAT.  Statistics are deceptive, if Favre, Montana, Marino and Elway played in this era they would have had even better stats than they did.

Favre? Last I saw he did play in this era. And he has set the most unbreakable record in team sports, more unbreakable than any hits or HR records,  or TD passing records, or NBA NHL scoring records:

336 interceptions. Nobody will ever be allowed to get even close.

[saevel25]

I'd say Peyton is missing one more Super Bowl before he gets the GOAT.  Statistics are deceptive, if Favre, Montana, Marino and Elway played in this era they would have had even better stats than they did.

Not sure I agree with that statement.

Farve over a 10 year stretch from 1994 to 2003 averaged 30 TD per year, with about 3700-4000 yards. His TD's are pretty much top 5 per year for modern QB's. His Yards might be a tad low, being sub 4000. I don't see him getting drastically better at all.

Joe Montana probably would have been a top 5 QB in the modern era stats wise. He has about a 63% completion percentage.

I don't see Marino gaining that much. He had a few years during his career were he was 4000+ yard passer with 30+ TD's. He was a sub 60% passer though, so not sure if being any more pass happy in the offense would help him or not.

Same with Elway, he was a career 57% passer, not very good for elite QB. He was lucky to have some very good defenses and running backs on his side. If he went to a pass happy offense, I don't see him gaining much because of him not being an elite passer in accuracy.

Probably the guy I see who would benefit the most would be Steve Young. A 64% completion percentage, Had a few years were he showed he could throw modern day elite stats. 4000+ yards, 30+ TD's. I think if he had a system that threw the ball a lot he could produce that from year to year.

[Golfingdad]

I think flopping is different then the things you describe, but I can see why you would disagree.

That sweater is terrible!

Sure its ugly, but it looks really comfy.  Of course, I'm sure Uggs are comfy too ... so I'll stop talking about the sweater now. ;)

And, yes, I disagree with with the idea that those things are different than flopping, but you already knew that.

Favre? Last I saw he did play in this era. And he has set the most unbreakable record in team sports, more unbreakable than any hits or HR records,  or TD passing records, or NBA NHL scoring records:

336 interceptions. Nobody will ever be allowed to get even close.

Yeah, we like big numbers huh?  Who cares how many interceptions you throw as long as you throw some touchdowns too and win a Super Bowl.  First two people that came to mind when you mention this are Reggie Jackson and Nolan Ryan.  Hall of Famers who have some gaudy numbers on the positive side, but go look at Reggies strikeouts and Nolans walks (yikes!!) and it ain't pretty.

Not sure I agree with that statement.

Wait, how could you not agree with that statement?  The rules have been revised since they all played such that defenders have a harder time guarding receivers without committing penalties.  I would go so far as to say with almost 100% certainty that every single quarterback who played prior to the current era would have better stats now than when they played - all else being equal.

I mean, how could they not?

What you're saying is akin to suggesting that some golfers from past eras would NOT necessarily hit it farther with todays equipment.

[saevel25]

Yeah, we like big numbers huh?  Who cares how many interceptions you throw as long as you throw some touchdowns too and win a Super Bowl.  First two people that came to mind when you mention this are Reggie Jackson and Nolan Ryan.  Hall of Famers who have some gaudy numbers on the positive side, but go look at Reggies strikeouts and Nolans walks (yikes!!) and it ain't pretty.

I don't think it mattered for Nolan Ryan. His Whip was still 1.247 even with all the walks!!!

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

His defenses didn't throw pick sixes in the SB!!!!!!    I just marvel at the excuses for Peyton not winning more in the playoffs.  I think he is a great QB, but he has to bear a good deal of the responsibility for his performance in the post season because he touches the ball the most.

Brady has 32 turnovers in 26 playoff games, 31 if we don't count the Tom Brady Rule.  Did his defense throw those?

The perception is that Brady is clutch because he won 3 times when he was basically a young Trent Dilfer and relied on everyone around him to get the job done.  From there, all rationality goes out the window.  Its actually a widely held belief that Tom Brady is clutch in the playoffs and Peyton chokes...well..its true that their playoff performances are not even close....but its not what you think....

Brady vs Manning in the playoffs

Brady - 62%, 247 yards per game, 43 TD's, 31 turnovers.  QBRs 60, 61, 4, 8, 75, 57, 70.  Passer ratings 77, 84, 109, 92, 77, 96, 49, 89, 100, 84, 87

Manning - 64%, 286 yards per game, 37 TD's, 28 turnovers, QBR 61, 77, 75, 80, 74, 56, 77.  Passer Rating 62, 82, 31, 106, 107, 90, 70, 98, 90, 99, 108, 88, 94.

Brady is better by a tiny margin on turnover ratio--1.39 TDs to turnovers for Brady, 1.32 for Peyton.  The difference is basically the Tom Brady Rule.  Everything else favors Peyton.  Peyton threw for more yards and slightly higher completion percentage.   Peyton topped a 90 passer rating in 8 playoff years, Brady 4 times.

Then look at QBR which is basically a measure of how much the player helped his team win the game.  50 is an average quarterback, and 75 is a league leader.  Since 2006 (when the stat starts) Brady posted a 75 once and a 70 once.  Peyton has a 77, 75, 80, 74, 77--so he played, in the playoffs, like the best QB in the regular season 5 times, to Brady's 2.  His others were 31, 62, 56, where Brady's were 4, 8, 57, 60, 61.  A 4 and an 8!  He caused 2 first round exits by himself, and had 3 games were he was good but not great.  Manning was bad once, good but not great twice, and terrific 5 times.

And look at the Trent Dilfer years.  Manning wasn't in the playoffs in 2001.  Lets look at the others.

In 2003, Brady and Peyton each played 3 playoff games, but the Pats won the superbowl.  This is one of the years that evidence Brady's greatness compared to Peyton, right?  Peyton completed 65% of his passes, for an average of 8.91 yards per completion, 306 yards per game, with 9 TDs, 4 turnovers, and a QB rating of 106.  Brady complted 59.5% of his passes, threw 264 years per game, with 5 TDs and 2 turnovers and a QB Rating of 84.5.   Peyton was much better, in the playoffs, in 2003, than Brady.

In 2004, Peyton only played 2 games to Brady's 3.  Peyton--72%, 348 yards per game, 9.28 yards per completion (!!) 4 TDs, 3 turnovers and a rating of 107.4.  Brady - 68%, 195 yards per game, game, 5 TDs, 0 turnovers, and a rating of 92.  I'd say Peyton was better, but even if you value turnovers more than anything and say Brady was better, its slim.

There's really absolutely no comparison between the two.  The playoffs are the only thing Brady lovers hang onto, and he clearly loses to Peyton there.

And let's go off the field.  Peyton Manning nails SNL, does great commercials, and promotes pizza.  Brady cries on espn because poor him got drafted low, and....well...

And the final nail in the coffin, Peyton would never flop.  http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/10/16/6991921/jets-pats-scuffle-tom-brady-flop  That's worth at least 2 rings.

Blah, Blah, Blah. Now go back and read my posts.  Did not talk about Brady.  Talked about Montana and Starr.  I know you hate Brady and I really don't care (and neither does he).  Manning has played average at best in the playoffs where it really counts.  Peyton, BTW, had the rules of football changed for him because he cried that his receivers were not open when he wanted them to be.  He throws many, many touchdowns in the regular season and pick sixes in the Super Bowl.  His playoff record is not that good.  His brother is much better in the Super Bowl (not Cooper, the other one).

[Slice of Life]

Manning has played average at best in the playoffs where it really counts.

And you continue to ignore the fact that his stats are similar or even better than Brady's in the playoffs...

[saevel25]

And you continue to ignore the fact that his stats are similar or even better than Brady's in the playoffs...

Pretty much.

NFL = Team Sport not QB only

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Manning has played average at best in the playoffs where it really counts.

And you continue to ignore the fact that his stats are similar or even better than Brady's in the playoffs...

Except for the wins!!!! Winning is all the matters!

Football is a team sport.  I find these GOAT arguments entertaining but really irrelevant.  I like watching the sport and the better players, but cheer for my team because it is my home town.  I like watching golf because I just like seeing great players play.

[dsc123]

Manning has played average at best in the playoffs where it really counts.

To this, I say

Now go back and read my posts.

Because it showed that Peyton has been great in the playoffs, where it really counts.

And to this...

Did not talk about Brady.

I say, yes you did....

Put it this way, if the Super Bowl was on the line, you had 1:49 seconds and no time outs, who would you want at QB?  That is easy for me, Joe Montana.  If I wanted to put money on winning a playoff game and had to pick one QB, Bart Starr.  If it had to be an active QB, Brady.  If I wanted to put money on a regular season game and extra money on the stats like passing TDs, yards and completion %, Peyton Manning.

And regardless of whether you bring up Brady, you're claiming Peyton is bad in the playoffs so showing that he is as good or better than Brady in the playoffs--a guy who is praised for his playoff performance--is relevant to the perception of Peyton.

I know you hate Brady and I really don't care (and neither does he).

So in the face of facts that contradict your opinion, you simply reassert your opinion and allege personal bias?

Peyton, BTW, had the rules of football changed for him because he cried that his receivers were not open when he wanted them to be.

I guess you're referring to the Seahawks defensive holding?   I don't know that Peyton was responsible for that, there's been a consistent move towards restricting defenses in the NFL, but even if he was, it was a change that occurred after the season and applies across the board.  Its not like he benefited from it before anyone else did--its wasn't like the Tuck Rule where suddenly the Golden Boy was given another chance after blowing the game.

I've got nothing to say about Montana or Starr.  The game changes too much to make comparisons between generations.

[saevel25]

Except for the wins!!!!   Winning is all the matters!

Football is a team sport.  I find these GOAT arguments entertaining but really irrelevant.  I like watching the sport and the better players, but cheer for my team because it is my home town.  I like watching golf because I just like seeing great players play.

So if Player A throws for 350, 4-TD's no INT, and lets say has 65% completion percentage. Versus Player B who throws for 200, 2-TD, 2-INT. Yet Player B's team wins because Player A's team's RB Fumbled twice and had a Kickoff return for a TD. Player B's team had a RB that went for 200 yards rushing and had 3-TD's.

You are saying Player B is the better QB because the TEAM won.

Do you see how silly that sounds.