Peyton Manning the Greatest QB?

[dsc123]

Actually off topic , isn't spiking the ball intentional grounding, if you wanted to take the literal action? I don't think there is a player near enough to be considered an eligible receiver, and the QB is with in the tackles?

The QB kneel is similar.  Usually you're not down until you're touched.  Is there a separate rule for QB kneels?  Before the changes with feet first slides?

[saevel25]

The QB kneel is similar.  Usually you're not down until you're touched.  Is there a separate rule for QB kneels?  Before the changes with feet first slides?

Yea, I think that is true. Though I am not sure if they changed the rules on if a player gives himself up on the play, if that is a different scenario.

Kinda like a fair catch signal.

[boogielicious]

Ultimately--and this is the meat of it--unless you think those guys are better than Brady, you have to admit that playoff win % is not the best indicator.  And once you admit that, your sole knock against Peyton disappears, as does your sole stated reason for choosing anyone else over Manning--be it Brady in a playoff game, or Montana/Starr as GOAT.

Brady has been doing it for 14 years.  Those other guys much less.  When they get to 14 years (the active ones) lets talk.  Manning has three years more experience starting.  So, with that said, Brady has a better win % than Manning in the playoffs.  I think it does matter.  You don't.  You seem to only think stats matter.  So I am not dodging the question.  I would take Brady over Manning in the playoffs solely on the basis that Brady's teams, with him at QB have performed better than Manning's teams with him at QB.  A five time league MVP should have better than an 11-12 playoff record if he wants to be considered GOAT.

Because Montana's career is over, I can add him to the argument.  His performances in the SB were spectacular and he did it 4 times.  That is why I think he is the GOAT.  Bradshaw did it 4 times as well.  People seem to disregard him, which is a shame.  Aikman has three wins and no one talks about him either.  Elway went to five, like Brady, and won two.  When Rogers, Flacco, Wilson, Big Ben, Eli approach 14 years, or go to more SB, then we'll add them to the discussion.  Brees has won a SB and is a terrific QB, but his teams can't seem to win on the road in the playoff, so I would lower him on the list.  Bart Starr was 8-1.  Winning in playoffs is what I consider the most important stat.

This is my reasoning, which you disagree with.  That is fine with me.  It has been entertaining.  Someday I would like to have a beer with you guys and we could argue about it all over again. Or maybe just play some golf.

[Slice of Life]

Bradshaw did it 4 times as well.  People seem to disregard him, which is a shame.  Aikman has three wins and no one talks about him either.  Elway went to five, like Brady, and won two.

That's because it's the ultimate team sport. Bradshaw's left tackle isn't talked about as the best Left Tackle ever because he won 4 Super Bowls. It's the entire body of work, no one person can win a Super Bowl, period. And as it's been shown 800 times in this thread already, Brady's Super Bowl winning teams were superior than Peyton's. How you can't comprehend that one out of the 22 starters can't win a guy by himself is incomprehensible...

[saevel25]

Brady has been doing it for 14 years.  Those other guys much less.  When they get to 14 years (the active ones) lets talk.  Manning has three years more experience starting.  So, with that said, Brady has a better win % than Manning in the playoffs.  I think it does matter.  You don't.  You seem to only think stats matter.  So I am not dodging the question.  I would take Brady over Manning in the playoffs solely on the basis that Brady's teams, with him at QB have performed better than Manning's teams with him at QB.  A five time league MVP should have better than an 11-12 playoff record if he wants to be considered GOAT.

It isn't Brady who has the winning percentage it is the team who does. Brady is just lucky enough to be part of that team. If you put any of the leagues best QB's on those teams, they would win nearly as many or more than Brady in the post season. Brady isn't the one that made those teams, though he was an important part.

Again it was pointed out that Brady had more complete teams over the years. The defenses were better, and Brady had the best head coach in the game behind him. Nothing to say about Peyton, but he went through 3 head coaches in Indy. Just on shear consistency and continuity of not having a head coaching change is HUGE for a team. We see it all the time, it takes a few years for a coach to get the players use to a system.

Again, Brady was lucky enough to have a more complete team, the best head coach in the last 15 years. Any elite QB in the NFL today would have the same magnitude of success that Brady had. It isn't stats, it is just common sense.

Because Montana's career is over, I can add him to the argument.  His performances in the SB were spectacular and he did it 4 times.  That is why I think he is the GOAT.  Bradshaw did it 4 times as well.  People seem to disregard him, which is a shame.  Aikman has three wins and no one talks about him either.  Elway went to five, like Brady, and won two.  When Rogers, Flacco, Wilson, Big Ben, Eli approach 14 years, or go to more SB, then we'll add them to the discussion.  Brees has won a SB and is a terrific QB, but his teams can't seem to win on the road in the playoff, so I would lower him on the list.  Bart Starr was 8-1.  Winning in playoffs is what I consider the most important stat.

So you are admitting you are lowing a QB's performance based on the overall play of the team.

Yet again, winning doesn't make a QB good. What about 2000 Baltimore Ravens. Trent Dilfer had a sub 50% completion percentage, only threw 1 TD pass, and only threw for 157 yards. Yet the team won 34 to 7 because that defense was just stupid good.

Would you say a QB had a good day if the stat line was 48% completion percentage, 1 TD, 157 yards passing. I don't think anyone would say that was good QB play.

[MS256]

Slightly off topic.

Comparing different eras:

I heard John Hannah talking on the radio a month or two ago and they asked him how he would fit in today.

He basically said he might struggle because he wasn't big enough for zone blocking, and that he beat his opponents by getting off of the ball and drive blocking.

I was slightly taken aback because I still consider John Hannah the best linemen I ever watched. One of the few linemen with flawless enough technique that he very seldom had to resort to holding.

BTW changing the definition of holding, and specifically extending the arms and grabbing inside of the shoulders, is yet another huge advantage to today's passing game, or any play where you have to hold a block longer. Now they don't consider it holding until you get outside of the shoulders or are hanging on once the defensive player has beaten the block.

We used to "cheat" and grab the center of the jersey but had to keep our facemask right up against our hands and keep driving so the refs wouldn't see it.

[Slice of Life]

By the way, for those assuming that WRs help quarterback stats and that it isn't the other way around, here's something I consider relevant....

Emmanuel Sanders best YEAR in Pittsburgh (Played all 16 games):

67 receptions, 112 targets (59.8%), 740 yards, 11 yard average, 6 TDs, 37 first downs

Emmanuel Sanders first 7 games with Peyton Manning at QB (7 games...not even half a season):

47 receptions, 60 targets (78.3%), 634 yards, 13.5 yard average, 4 TDs, 30 first downs

[newtogolf]

By the way, for those assuming that WRs help quarterback stats and that it isn't the other way around, here's something I consider relevant....

Emmanuel Sanders best YEAR in Pittsburgh (Played all 16 games):

67 receptions, 112 targets (59.8%), 740 yards, 11 yard average, 6 TDs, 37 first downs

Emmanuel Sanders first 7 games with Peyton Manning at QB (7 games...not even half a season):

47 receptions, 60 targets (78.3%), 634 yards, 13.5 yard average, 4 TDs, 30 first downs

Conversely, as a Browns fan then how do you explain the QB numbers of the Browns with and without Josh Gordon?  QB and WR are mutually dependent on one another.  Stafford would not have the numbers he did if not for Megatron.

Sanders is a good receiver but as a Steeler his role was more limited because the Pittsburgh offense is more ball control oriented.

[iacas]

Sanders is a good receiver but as a Steeler his role was more limited because the Pittsburgh offense is more ball control oriented.

Right. Plus he was more the check-down, safety valve receiver in Pittsburgh. Antonio Brown was and is the #1 guy on the Steelers for a little while now.

You can't compare one player in completely different offenses and utilizations and derive much valuable information.

[jamo]

Tom Brady read this thread and would like y'all to know that he disagrees and presents Patriots v. Bears, 10/26/14 as an example.

[ilikefishes]

I love that they stomped Chicago today. That means they aren't on a losing streak going into next week's games.

[Slice of Life]

EDIT: Oops, wrong thread!

P.S. Sanders wasn't the #1 in Pitt, sure. But he's the #3 option (at best) in Denver.

[Abu3baid]

EDIT: Oops, wrong thread! P.S. Sanders wasn't the #1 in Pitt, sure. But he's the #3 option (at best) in Denver.

FWIW while teams are working hard on containing JT and DM it isn't surprising a 3rd or 4th option would have a good year..

[ilikefishes]

I would say based on his receptions he is pretty high on the list. Kid is always open, and is working to get the ball. Show me someone else that has laid his body on the line more this year. He is earning his contact. The same can't be said for Decker.

[dfreuter415]

I think Peyton Manning is one of the elite, all-time greatest quarterbacks EVER, but to say that ANYONE is the greatest at anything can be disproved at many levels.

Let's see - Peyton Manning has one Super Bowl championship.  Montana & Bradshaw have 4. Brady & Aikman have three.  Seven quarterbacks have 2. If you include NFL Championships prior to the Super Bowl era, Bart Starr has five championships.

Just against Tom Brady, he has won 5 and lost 10.

Post season passer ratings say the same thing. From Wikipedia....

[Slice of Life]

I think Peyton Manning is one of the elite, all-time greatest quarterbacks EVER, but to say that ANYONE is the greatest at anything can be disproved at many levels.

Let's see - Peyton Manning has one Super Bowl championship.  Montana & Bradshaw have 4. Brady & Aikman have three.  Seven quarterbacks have 2. If you include NFL Championships prior to the Super Bowl era, Bart Starr has five championships.

Just against Tom Brady, he has won 5 and lost 10.

Post season passer ratings say the same thing. From Wikipedia....

Note who isn't in the top 10, Boogielicious...hehe :P

[iacas]

Note who isn't in the top 10, Boogielicious...hehe :P

To be fair, Mark Sanchez IS, though…

[Slice of Life]

To be fair, Mark Sanchez IS, though…

I noticed that too haha.

Sanchez got a bad rep though, I mean, he did come out and bring the Jets to like 2 AFC championship games, playing pretty well. The team just turned to crap...