The tool USGA officials hope will help solve the problem of slow play

[dkolo]

Eh. I wouldn't lose sleep at night over that rule. Leaving the flag in is more likely to kick a putt out than keep it in. I'm usually sprinting to get as many holes in as possible. If the course is open and I'm alone, I'll get 9 holes in in under 60 minutes. It adds up. I'm at the point in golf where I just need as much course time as I can get. I'm not counting it for handicap; I'll have already played my full 18 at that point. It's usually dark enough at that point in the day that green reading is basically "does it go left, right, or straight" and lagging it to tap in range.

For what it's worth (and it's not worth anything), I swear I remember reading an article last year about someone who played some casual rounds with Tiger and remarking that Tiger rarely pulls the pin when he plays under those circumstances. More of an aside than justification, haha.

And a practical reason I forgot about was it helps to see the hole better as it gets darker.

[newtogolf]

Eh. I wouldn't lose sleep at night over that rule. Leaving the flag in is more likely to kick a putt out than keep it in. I'm usually sprinting to get as many holes in as possible. If the course is open and I'm alone, I'll get 9 holes in in under 60 minutes. It adds up. I'm at the point in golf where I just need as much course time as I can get. I'm not counting it for handicap; I'll have already played my full 18 at that point. It's usually dark enough at that point in the day that green reading is basically "does it go left, right, or straight" and lagging it to tap in range.

For what it's worth (and it's not worth anything), I swear I remember reading an article last year about someone who played some casual rounds with Tiger and remarking that Tiger rarely pulls the pin when he plays under those circumstances. More of an aside than justification, haha.

If my understanding is correct, Tiger and other pro's don't maintain a handicap, so they don't post their scores during non-tournament rounds.

[Pretzel]

The intent is not to "solve" it - the intent is to provide data so that it can be improved. Courses have to know what is causing the slow-down before they can do much about it.

When I was the marshal at a course I could tell you exactly who was slowing things down and why within a pass or two around the golf course. The usual culprits:

1) The foursome in carts (or walking) who always congregates at one ball before moving to the next as a group

2) The beverage cart

3) The tee sheet

4) The inability for marshals to do anything besides say, "Would you please pick up the pace?" because courses are afraid of getting bad reviews and/or complaints from people who were asked to pick up and move to the next hole when they are far out of position.

If a course wants to know what's causing the slow-down's, all they need to do is get a volunteer marshal (paid with some golfing privileges) to go around the course in the mornings on weekends. They'll be able to know within two days exactly what the problem is.

[mvmac]

Eh. I wouldn't lose sleep at night over that rule. Leaving the flag in is more likely to kick a putt out than keep it in. I'm usually sprinting to get as many holes in as possible. If the course is open and I'm alone, I'll get 9 holes in in under 60 minutes. It adds up. I'm at the point in golf where I just need as much course time as I can get. I'm not counting it for handicap; I'll have already played my full 18 at that point. It's usually dark enough at that point in the day that green reading is basically "does it go left, right, or straight" and lagging it to tap in range.

For what it's worth (and it's not worth anything), I swear I remember reading an article last year about someone who played some casual rounds with Tiger and remarking that Tiger rarely pulls the pin when he plays under those circumstances. More of an aside than justification, haha.

And a practical reason I forgot about was it helps to see the hole better as it gets darker.

Quick reminder, you have 9 minutes to edit posts. Just click the "pencil" to edit/add to your post.

If a course wants to know what's causing the slow-down's, all they need to do is get a volunteer marshal (paid with some golfing privileges) to go around the course in the mornings on weekends. They'll be able to know within two days exactly what the problem is.

I was thinking the same thing. Having some data is great but hopefully the USGA guys take the time to do this if they haven't already. I assume all of them of them have volunteered at tournaments but maybe not seen what a round looks like for the recreational golfer.

[Slice of Life]

I get what you're saying, but really how much time can it possibly take to pull out and replace a flagstick? Ten seconds total? You can't afford three minutes in your round to play by the rules?

Ten seconds is generous. If you're 25 feet away, you're going to walk 25 feet, pull the pin, walk 25 feet back, and address your ball in 10 seconds? Not to mention putting the flagstick back in.

And for what? So you can feel better about playing by the rules in a non-competitive practice round?

[bkuehn1952]

I am trying to imagine how the data will be used.  Assuming the device can filter out situations where the flag is pulled and then replaced by the same group (i.e. person away putts, then the next person chips with the flag in), the user will essentially get the time interval between each group completing a hole, moving to the next hole, playing and finally completing the next hole.  It doesn't tell the course what the group did to take 20 minutes to play the hole.  Unless the data is tied to the tee sheet, it won't identify whether the group had 1,2,3,4 or more players.  Even if tied to the tee sheet, groups playing through will alter the order.

So Group A, a foursome, tees off at 7:00am.  The tracking device records each removal/replacement of the flagstick as Group A wends their way around the course.  The first time the 18th flagstick is removed/replaced tells us the total time for Group A as well as the time for each hole.  This assumes that no one went off the 10th for an early nine holes or we can sort that data out.  It also assumes no one plays through Group A.  So now we know Group A took 3:45 to play, taking from 10 to 15 minutes a hole.  Next, Group B finishes in 3:55.  We don't know why it took them 10 minutes longer.  We might be able to pin point one or more holes where they lost time.  Possibly over the course of a year we could identify inordinately difficult holes based on the average group time.  Still on any given day a single slow group will severely affect the times for all succeeding groups.

Anyone see how this gadget is going to produce info that will really help?

[Golfingdad]

Ten seconds is generous. If you're 25 feet away, you're going to walk 25 feet, pull the pin, walk 25 feet back, and address your ball in 10 seconds? Not to mention putting the flagstick back in.

And for what? So you can feel better about playing by the rules in a non-competitive practice round?

I don't disagree with you AT ALL because I think it's silly that people even care if you pull the pin or not while you're playing.  Besides, it's not even remotely related to the thread.

However, I don't think 10 seconds is generous for most.  If you're 25 feet away, and you're an aimpointer, then you're already 12' away while you're doing your read.  The only "extra" is the 12' walk to the hole and back.  How long does it take to walk 24'.  Not 10 seconds.

Furthermore, you're not always walking onto the green from behind your putt.  After you've placed your bag or cart on the correct side of the hole for the next tee, sometimes you have to walk past the hole to get to your ball anyway, in which case it's adding no time at all.  In the long run, pulling or not pulling the flag isn't going to make any discernable difference in the length of a round, so it's really neither here nor there.

[nevets88]

What about buying data from Game Golf? You'd think they have a mountain of data useful for tracking time related stats.

[Slice of Life]

I don't disagree with you AT ALL because I think it's silly that people even care if you pull the pin or not while you're playing.  Besides, it's not even remotely related to the thread.

However, I don't think 10 seconds is generous for most.  If you're 25 feet away, and you're an aimpointer, then you're already 12' away while you're doing your read.  The only "extra" is the 12' walk to the hole and back.  How long does it take to walk 24'.  Not 10 seconds.

Furthermore, you're not always walking onto the green from behind your putt.  After you've placed your bag or cart on the correct side of the hole for the next tee, sometimes you have to walk past the hole to get to your ball anyway, in which case it's adding no time at all.  In the long run, pulling or not pulling the flag isn't going to make any discernable difference in the length of a round, so it's really neither here nor there.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not an aimpointer, and when playing by myself, I spend about 2 seconds lining up a putt and then actually putting. I don't practice putting all that much since it's not a big concern of mine.

[Golfingdad]

I see what you're saying, but I'm not an aimpointer, and when playing by myself, I spend about 2 seconds lining up a putt and then actually putting. I don't practice putting all that much since it's not a big concern of mine.

Well, I've heard you say how long it takes you to get around a course when playing by yourself so ... I believe you.

I'd also (randomly) add that this is one of the USGA rules that is not used in Speed Golf.  So I guess that says something .

[Slice of Life]

Well, I've heard you say how long it takes you to get around a course when playing by yourself so ... I believe you.

Hehe. One of the reasons I get around so quick. I just don't care to line stuff up and do the stuff I would normally do in an actual round. When I'm out by myself, I'm working on ball-striking and that's about it. The putting/chipping practice is just a bonus.

[iacas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patch

That said, I don't think slow play will ever go away completely, no matter how much info is obtained.

Nobody's suggesting that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patch

I know I am in the minority here, but slow play is what it is, and folks just need to deal with it when it happens to them.

You are, rightfully, in the minority on that. Your post reads like this: "since we can't ever solve it completely, we should not bother trying; it is what it is."

Hogwash. It can be improved, and for people like me who would get to play more golf, there are very good reasons to try to improve it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patch

I don't like it, but it happens to me from time to time. Perhaps I am not playing the right (slower play) courses, but I only have to deal with slow play a hand full of times (5%-10%)  in a 12 month period. I average 2.5 rounds per week. To me it's not that big of deal. Of course my schedule allows me to play during the slower times of the week. I suspect those golfers who have to work Monday through Friday, and only have time on the busier weekends are the ones who have to deal with it more often. Golfers who live in more populated cities also have more slow play issues to deal with I suppose.

So because you aren't affected, the rest of the world shouldn't care?

Again, I have a hard time believing that's what you truly intend to say, but it's how what you're saying can be read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patch

On another note, if I were a course manager, I would not want to alienate slow players, who If I pressed them to play faster, might take their wallet to another course.

Do you realize and appreciate that golfers who don't want to spend five hours on a golf course have already done that? Stop playing or spend their money at other courses?

Slow play can easily be shown to cost courses money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretzel

4) The inability for marshals to do anything besides say, "Would you please pick up the pace?" because courses are afraid of getting bad reviews and/or complaints from people who were asked to pick up and move to the next hole when they are far out of position.

If a course wants to know what's causing the slow-down's, all they need to do is get a volunteer marshal (paid with some golfing privileges) to go around the course in the mornings on weekends. They'll be able to know within two days exactly what the problem is.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/thrash_talk/slow_play

Scroll down to " The Pussification of the Modern Ranger ." :) Executive summary: I agree.

Quote from http://thesandtrap.com/b/thrash_talk/slow_play:

I'm old enough to remember marshals - or "rangers" as they're sometimes called - speaking not-so-softly and carrying an incredibly large stick. I remember fearing seeing the ranger's cart coming your way because it meant you were about to be warned or, for a second offense, booted from the course or told to skip a hole. You didn't mess with the ranger.

Sadly, that ranger is dead, buried, and forgotten. The modern ranger is a customer service weenie who is more likely to crack a smile and a joke about how slow things are than to crack a whip and get your ass in gear. Afraid of confrontation (and often instructed not to be confrontational), the modern ranger will seemingly do everything in his power to make your time at his course more enjoyable… except speed up play.

The modern ranger is, unfortunately, a reflection of modern customer service, which came about because The American Way says the customer is always right, even when they're a boorish, self-centered idiot who couldn't care less about how their actions affect others.

[Slice of Life]

Scroll down to "The Pussification of the Modern Ranger." :) Executive summary: I agree.

Man...I was just saying this earlier in the year. When I was a kid, if the Ranger came around, you'd better be ready for an earful if you weren't doing something right. Now they just drive around aimlessly...

[Archie Bunker]

When I clicked on and saw the photo in the original post, I thought it was a cattle prod.

I'm disappointed :(

[ghalfaire]

I like it.  Clever idea.  But I bet it won't be implemented very many places (cost).

[Pretzel]

Man...I was just saying this earlier in the year. When I was a kid, if the Ranger came around, you'd better be ready for an earful if you weren't doing something right. Now they just drive around aimlessly...

When I was trained by the owner of the course, he said, "Whenever you come up to people, try to make a joke so that they don't feel bad about playing slowly before you ask them to pick up the pace in a polite manner. You never should ask that a group pick up and move ahead unless they are at least two holes behind the group in front of them. These people paid to play, so let them take all the time they need. The only time you should be confrontational is if they trash the course, trash the carts, or trash on you."

It's people like that (I'm not sure how frequently the owner of the course even golfs, but I've heard on the radio him complaining about slow play when he does) that contribute to slow play. When the guy writing the checks says you can't do anything, you don't have much choice but to put on a fake smile as you watch the course grind to a halt when they try to pile another foursome on every seven minutes.

[No Mulligans]

I am trying to imagine how the data will be used.  Assuming the device can filter out situations where the flag is pulled and then replaced by the same group (i.e. person away putts, then the next person chips with the flag in), the user will essentially get the time interval between each group completing a hole, moving to the next hole, playing and finally completing the next hole.  It doesn't tell the course what the group did to take 20 minutes to play the hole.  Unless the data is tied to the tee sheet, it won't identify whether the group had 1,2,3,4 or more players.  Even if tied to the tee sheet, groups playing through will alter the order.

So Group A, a foursome, tees off at 7:00am.  The tracking device records each removal/replacement of the flagstick as Group A wends their way around the course.  The first time the 18th flagstick is removed/replaced tells us the total time for Group A as well as the time for each hole.  This assumes that no one went off the 10th for an early nine holes or we can sort that data out.  It also assumes no one plays through Group A.  So now we know Group A took 3:45 to play, taking from 10 to 15 minutes a hole.  Next, Group B finishes in 3:55.  We don't know why it took them 10 minutes longer.  We might be able to pin point one or more holes where they lost time.  Possibly over the course of a year we could identify inordinately difficult holes based on the average group time.  Still on any given day a single slow group will severely affect the times for all succeeding groups.

Anyone see how this gadget is going to produce info that will really help?

The course is completely booked with no open tee times.  Group A finishes hole 3, 12 minutes later Group A finishes hole 4.  No one after group A has finished hole 3 yet. There is at least a one hole gap.  Marshall better head over there, make group B speed up or skip a hole.

Or, the course isn't completely booked.  Group A finishes hole 3, Group B finishes hole 3, Group C finishes hole 3 and Group A hasn't finished hole 4.  There's a back up with two groups waiting on a tee box.  Better send the Marshall and make Group A speed up or skip a hole.

Or, group A has played 9 holes at an average pace of 15 minutes per hole.  Group B is playing at 10 minutes per hole and is now on hole 9, no one is right behind Group B.  Send the Marshall, make Group A let Group B play through.

[David in FL]

The course is completely booked with no open tee times.  Group A finishes hole 3, 12 minutes later Group A finishes hole 4.  No one after group A has finished hole 3 yet. There is at least a one hole gap.  Marshall better head over there, make group B speed up or skip a hole. Or, the course isn't completely booked.  Group A finishes hole 3, Group B finishes hole 3, Group C finishes hole 3 and Group A hasn't finished hole 4.  There's a back up with two groups waiting on a tee box.  Better send the Marshall and make Group A speed up or skip a hole. Or, group A has played 9 holes at an average pace of 15 minutes per hole.  Group B is playing at 10 minutes per hole and is now on hole 9, no one is right behind Group B.  Send the Marshall, make Group A let Group B play through.

I don't believe this is a "real time" course management tool. Rather something that will provide data that will be analyzed to show where delays might be happening...