Is Distance Really That Important for Amateurs?

[inthehole]

I haven't kept up with this thread, but I think it all boils down to how ROUGH is the rough on a given course.    If its not terribly penal, sure, 140 from reasonable rough is better than 165 from the fairway.   However, if the rough is high, I'm swinging more in control and 100% focusing on keeping it in the short grass, anticipating a longer approach shot ...

Another thing I don't think has been mentioned is that when you wind up in the rough (at least on the mountain courses around here) ... the angle into the green often becomes an issue and raises the degree of difficulty, plus there are usually a strategically placed tree or two forward that come into play, creating obstacles that you have to hit over, around or under -  all of which is avoided if you hit the fairway.

So again, I'd rather have a STRAIGHT in shot from the fairway even at a longer distance by and large than deal with heavier rough, bad angles and large leafy obstacles on my approach shot.

[Somerset Simon]

I think we all agree that working on accuracy is important.  Many of the forum members joined The Sand Trap to improve their golf game.  In working on improving our swings we are working on accuracy.  It is essential.  A good golf swing will be more accurate.  But I think the original question by the OP, who is a novice player, was asking whether they should leave the driver out of the bag to score lower (paraphrasing).  My reply and many others indicated that you should not because in general, you will score lower if you are further down the fairway off the tee.

Somehow the thread diverged into a debate of extremes (how unusual) of accuracy versus distance where only one would be important.

Your example above is a good one, but let me ask you this.  Once you get to be an 80s player, aren't you already near max in distance and now accuracy is the fine tuning?  My 54 year old body is not going to magically gain 40 yards off the tee because I have a relatively good swing now and my body is not really going to improve much at my age.  Now I am just working to optimize it and control the other keys in the swing that help accuracy.  So I have already gone through the phase of improving distance to get from a 100s golfer to an 80s golfer.

I agree you should always use driver off the tee unless there is a significant risk of getting into trouble.

Not arguing against that.

I also agree that anyone who is over 25 and has been playing 5+ years and has a sound swing is probably already close to their maximum distance.

But I don't agree that accuracy is just "fine tuning".

I think accuracy can make an enormous difference to your scores.

My experience is that shooting low scores is more about limiting errors rather than making lots of birdies.

If a 100 golfer can learn to eliminate lost balls, they will easily get down to 90.

If a 90 golfer can learn to eliminate double-bogeys, they will easily get down to 80.

If an 80 golfer can learn to eliminate the occasional wayward drive, they will easily get down to 75.

If a 75 golfer can learn to eliminate missed greens from 150 or less, they will easily get down to 70.

This is all about improving accuracy.

Sure distance helps, but accuracy is the key.

Simon

[billchao]

If a 75 golfer can learn to eliminate missed greens from 150 or less, they will easily get down to 70.

This is all about improving accuracy.

Sure distance helps, but accuracy is the key.

The median PGA Tour player last year hit 72% GIR from 125-150 yards, and 82% from <125 yards, so I don't believe you can eliminate missed greens inside 150 yards, not even if you're one of the best golfers in the world.

BTW, the make % goes up as the distance from the green goes down. Closer is better, and how do you get closer to the green? Hit it farther.

[Somerset Simon]

The median PGA Tour player last year hit 72% GIR from 125-150 yards, and 82% from <125 yards, so I don't believe you can eliminate missed greens inside 150 yards, not even if you're one of the best golfers in the world.

BTW, the make % goes up as the distance from the green goes down. Closer is better, and how do you get closer to the green? Hit it farther.

Obviously you cannot eliminate 100% of missed greens from 150, but, in my experience, one of the biggest differences between players who regularly shoot 70 and those who shoot 75 is scoring from 150 or closer. The players who shoot 70 hardly ever take more than 3 shots from 150 or less whereas the players who shoot 75 waste several shots per round from this range. Not saying this is the only difference between a 75 and a 70 player, but in my experience it is one of the most obvious differences.

Totally agree that hitting it farther is a good thing, but the further you hit it, the more accurate you need to be to keep it in play, and like others have said, once you reach a certain age, it's not realistic to expect a significant increase in distance, but there is always potential to significantly improve your accuracy if you put in the hours at the range.

[Lihu]

When I am 40 to 100 yards away I pray that I can get it close to the green in one shot. I don't even look at the pin.

Instead of putting yips I have chipping yips.

But when I am practicing I am just fine. During a real round I have the yips.

It is absolutely driving me nuts.

I know I can get down to a single if I can just solve this mental problem.

My driver and mid iron swing is that of a single digit. My short game is that of a 30 plus capper.

I found that this went away once I started playing every morning. I just finished playing the two best rounds in my life, but for the two months prior I didn't even score more than a few rounds.

This part of the game seems to improve by just playing a lot.

[ay33660]

I found that this went away once I started playing every morning. I just finished playing the two best rounds in my life, but for the two months prior I didn't even score more than a few rounds.

This part of the game seems to improve by just playing a lot.

Thanks for the encouragement from a fellow lefty and Mizuno iron player. I play the MX-23 though. Not sure I can even hit the MP-32s.

Trying out some new Mizuno irons but the selection for lefty's suck.

[Somerset Simon]

Thanks for the encouragement from a fellow lefty and Mizuno iron player. I play the MX-23 though. Not sure I can even hit the MP-32s.

Trying out some new Mizuno irons but the selection for lefty's suck.

I also play MX-23s.

Great irons. (IMHO)

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

I found that this went away once I started playing every morning. I just finished playing the two best rounds in my life, but for the two months prior I didn't even score more than a few rounds.

This part of the game seems to improve by just playing a lot.

Thanks for the encouragement from a fellow lefty and Mizuno iron player. I play the MX-23 though. Not sure I can even hit the MP-32s.

Trying out some new Mizuno irons but the selection for lefty's suck.

They are somewhere around an MP-53/54 level of difficulty to hit.

I hear good things about the JPX-850 forged. You might also take a look at the MP-54. I wish they came up with the V-cut blades again, but Callaway Apex MB is pretty close to the MP-32. I tried them out at a local store when getting my APEX UT gripped.

[ay33660]

They are somewhere around an MP-53/54 level of difficulty to hit.

I hear good things about the JPX-850 forged. You might also take a look at the MP-54. I wish they came up with the V-cut blades again, but Callaway Apex MB is pretty close to the MP-32. I tried them out at a local store when getting my APEX UT gripped.

Sorry Mods for getting so off topic.

I am going to look at the JPX-850 forged. My next set will be either MP-54 or the JPX-850 forged.

I really like simple clean lines so in general I don't like the JPX line because of the "busyness" at the back of the iron. I don't know why manufacturers insist on this with game improvement irons?

At least the back of the JPX-850 forged is not multi-coloured.

I have demo'd the new Apex Pro and AP-2s also. I think I am sticking with Mizuno.

[rb72]

The median PGA Tour player last year hit 72% GIR from 125-150 yards, and 82% from <125 yards, so I don't believe you can eliminate missed greens inside 150 yards, not even if you're one of the best golfers in the world.

BTW, the make % goes up as the distance from the green goes down. Closer is better, and how do you get closer to the green? Hit it farther.

Wow, I really find that stat hard to believe. From those distances most tour pros have pitching wedge or less in their hands and it seems to me that with a pitching wedge to the green the pros ALWAYS put it on the green and are usually upset when it's not within 10 feet. But then again this takes into account the 125-150 yard shots that are not from the fairway, like shots from fairway bunkers or deep rough or hardpan on the other side of a cart path...so I guess their inaccuracy hurt them more than their longer distance helped them.

To get back on topic, the question of whether distance or accuracy is more important simply doesn't make sense without more information, most of which has to do with questions of ..HOW MUCH and HOW MUCH.How much accuracy lost is worth the additional yard of distance gained.

In the table that Iacas posted as evidence to prove that distance is more important that accuracy it is using the value of .1 for degrees of accuracy lost per yard gained. What if it's .2 or .5 or..., it's an arbitrary number. I gave my own personal example, not to scientifically prove any trend but to illustrate that it is possible for an average bogie golfer to find some mechanism (not important what it is) that will lower your scores through an increase of accuracy at the expense of some distance. And, I would go as far to say that it is not only possible, but likely given the fact that I am a pretty typical bogie golfer with most of the more common flaws of the bogie golfer.

[Phil McGleno]

I've been silent and let some dopey things be said for a bit too long now. I couldn't see the screen with all the forehead slapping Ive been doing lately-Consider it my Thanksgiving gift to those members who havent undergone a holiday lobotomy.

So your example of someone who is bad or doesnt get it is someone who has won more majors than almost anyone in the last 30 years? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Good one!-Phil sucks!

There is a reason why Jack Nicklaus was a long and straight driver of the golf ball...it's hard to argue with that. There is also a reason why Phil Mickelson has come short so many times in Majors.

Way to read the chart Super Genius Math Masters Degree Man.-Duh, thats not how the chart works.

Based on your own figures, if a 100 golfer gains 20 yards, he/she can reduce their score to 97 or 98. If that is the limit of your ambition, then fine, focus on gaining the extra 20 yards. If, on the other hand, you want to break 90 then break 80 and eventually break 70, then you need to focus on accuracy.

If you never again say 'in my experience' it will be too soon. Your experience is bogus poppycock that you can distort to suit the point of view that you CLEARLY are not LIKE EVAR going to be dissuaded from giving Mr Math Masters Degree Super Genius Hero in a Half Shell

Obviously you cannot eliminate 100% of missed greens from 150, but, in my experience, one of the biggest differences between players who regularly shoot 70 and those who shoot 75 is scoring from 150 or closer. The players who shoot 70 hardly ever take more than 3 shots from 150 or less whereas the players who shoot 75 waste several shots per round from this range. Not saying this is the only difference between a 75 and a 70 player, but in my experience it is one of the most obvious differences.

Dope #3-You find FACTS hard to believe?-Go look them up.-Then you twist it around to imply that their poor driving accuracy is why they miss so many greens from 125-150?-The lengths you guys will go to to stick to your guns is incredible. Heaven forbid someone try to help you by pointing out things,No-You just want to stay blind.

Wow, I really find that stat hard to believe. From those distances most tour pros have pitching wedge or less in their hands and it seems to me that with a pitching wedge to the green the pros ALWAYS put it on the green and are usually upset when it's not within 10 feet. But then again this takes into account the 125-150 yard shots that are not from the fairway, like shots from fairway bunkers or deep rough or hardpan on the other side of a cart path...so I guess their inaccuracy hurt them more than their longer distance helped them.

Pros still hit greens at a good rate from 135 yards out in the rough.

What table is that which shows .1 degrees is 1 yard? Dont see it. And if it was in a table somewhere I dont think its arbitrary and you cant just make it .5?

In the table that Iacas posted as evidence to prove that distance is more important that accuracy it is using the value of .1 for degrees of accuracy lost per yard gained. What if it's .2 or .5 or..., it's an arbitrary number. I gave my own personal example, not to scientifically prove any trend but to illustrate that it is possible for an average bogie golfer to find some mechanism (not important what it is) that will lower your scores through an increase of accuracy at the expense of some distance. And, I would go as far to say that it is not only possible, but likely given the fact that I am a pretty typical bogie golfer with most of the more common flaws of the bogie golfer.

NObody cares about your own personal stuff. NOBODY except you. This thread is not about you.-People have said several times its for general discussion. YOu may be an exception. Good for you.-Maybe Math Masters Genius can give you a sucker.

[billchao]

Wow, I really find that stat hard to believe. From those distances most tour pros have pitching wedge or less in their hands and it seems to me that with a pitching wedge to the green the pros ALWAYS put it on the green and are usually upset when it's not within 10 feet. But then again this takes into account the 125-150 yard shots that are not from the fairway, like shots from fairway bunkers or deep rough or hardpan on the other side of a cart path...so I guess their inaccuracy hurt them more than their longer distance helped them.

You find it hard to believe? Why, because it goes against what you believe to be true? Those are the stats; feel free to look them up yourself. They don't average 10' from the pin, either. The 100th ranked PGA Tour player hit the green 72% of the time from 125-150 yards last year, and you're saying he has an accuracy problem? He plays golf on the PGA Tour. What's your make % from that distance? BTW you can break down the stats from the rough vs the fairway. Golf is great like that, it's full of stats that are tracked.

[Phil McGleno]

Leader in 2013 was >18 feet from pin: http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.2013.html Median was 23'. And that is from FAIRWAY. [quote name="billchao" url="/t/78188/is-distance-really-that-important-for-amateurs/360#post_1079726"] You find it hard to believe? Why, because it goes against what you believe to be true? Those are the stats; feel free to look them up yourself. They don't average 10' from the pin, either. [/quote] Happy Thanksgiving all~! Time for some face stuffing.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

I think we all agree that working on accuracy is important.  Many of the forum members joined The Sand Trap to improve their golf game.  In working on improving our swings we are working on accuracy.  It is essential.  A good golf swing will be more accurate.  But I think the original question by the OP, who is a novice player, was asking whether they should leave the driver out of the bag to score lower (paraphrasing).  My reply and many others indicated that you should not because in general, you will score lower if you are further down the fairway off the tee.

Somehow the thread diverged into a debate of extremes (how unusual) of accuracy versus distance where only one would be important.

Your example above is a good one, but let me ask you this.  Once you get to be an 80s player, aren't you already near max in distance and now accuracy is the fine tuning?  My 54 year old body is not going to magically gain 40 yards off the tee because I have a relatively good swing now and my body is not really going to improve much at my age.  Now I am just working to optimize it and control the other keys in the swing that help accuracy.  So I have already gone through the phase of improving distance to get from a 100s golfer to an 80s golfer.

I agree you should always use driver off the tee unless there is a significant risk of getting into trouble.

Not arguing against that.

I also agree that anyone who is over 25 and has been playing 5+ years and has a sound swing is probably already close to their maximum distance.

But I don't agree that accuracy is just "fine tuning".

I think accuracy can make an enormous difference to your scores.

My experience is that shooting low scores is more about limiting errors rather than making lots of birdies.

If a 100 golfer can learn to eliminate lost balls, they will easily get down to 90.

If a 90 golfer can learn to eliminate double-bogeys, they will easily get down to 80.

If an 80 golfer can learn to eliminate the occasional wayward drive, they will easily get down to 75.

If a 75 golfer can learn to eliminate missed greens from 150 or less, they will easily get down to 70.

This is all about improving accuracy.

Sure distance helps, but accuracy is the key.

Simon

Leader in 2013 was >18 feet from pin: http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.2013.html

Median was 23'. And that is from FAIRWAY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billchao

You find it hard to believe? Why, because it goes against what you believe to be true? Those are the stats; feel free to look them up yourself. They don't average 10' from the pin, either.

Happy Thanksgiving all~! Time for some face stuffing.

You too Phil!

[DrvFrShow]

Statistical evidence: I outdrive all but three of the women in my club by 50 or more yards. Over half of them beat me every round. According to stats, I should be a single digit handicap player. I am not. According to the stats they should be 30+ handicappers. They're not. They're 15-20 handicappers. They keep the ball in play. I can even out drive some of the single digit handicap players. These people keep the ball in play. They avoid trouble. They get the ball on the green and they putt out. I on the other hand make way too many mistakes. I miss too many shots. I block a shot or I pull a shot. I shank a shot.

[Ernest Jones]

Statistical evidence: I outdrive all but three of the women in my club by 50 or more yards. Over half of them beat me every round. According to stats, I should be a single digit handicap player. I am not. According to the stats they should be 30+ handicappers. They're not. They're 15-20 handicappers. They keep the ball in play. I can even out drive some of the single digit handicap players. These people keep the ball in play. They avoid trouble. They get the ball on the green and they putt out. I on the other hand make way too many mistakes. I miss too many shots. I block a shot or I pull a shot. I shank a shot.

Uhm, no.

"There's a 24 handicap in Washington that can drive the ball really far but is routinely beaten by 15 cappers" is not "statistical evidence"

[newtogolf]

Statistical evidence: I outdrive all but three of the women in my club by 50 or more yards. Over half of them beat me every round. According to stats, I should be a single digit handicap player. I am not. According to the stats they should be 30+ handicappers. They're not. They're 15-20 handicappers. They keep the ball in play. I can even out drive some of the single digit handicap players. These people keep the ball in play. They avoid trouble. They get the ball on the green and they putt out. I on the other hand make way too many mistakes. I miss too many shots. I block a shot or I pull a shot. I shank a shot.

You're an anomaly (no offense intended), most people that can consistently hit their drives the same distance as pro's don't typically shank and miss a lot of shots.

[billchao]

Leader in 2013 was >18 feet from pin: http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.2013.html Median was 23'. And that is from FAIRWAY. Happy Thanksgiving all~! Time for some face stuffing.

Sounds like he has some accuracy problems if he's only hitting to 18' ;-) Thanks for pulling the stat. For some reason I can't get them stats to work right on pgatour.com on my phone. Enjoy your Thanksgiving.