Would you play a non-conforming (illegal) driver?

[Lihu]

Since my first reply, the issue of using illegal clubs in scrambles has come up.  This summer, I saw a trend in scrambles that upsets me and goes in the same vein as using illegal clubs in scrambles.  Since scrambles are normally money raising events, I am seeing those running the events selling tickets for "Mulligans".  Those who buy the most "Mulligan Tickets" normally win the scramble.  Where does it end?  Whether it is an illegal club or a foursome has twenty extra shots, the integrity of the game comes into question.  Find another way to raise money.  I will not play in a scramble that sells the "Mulligan Tickets" because it brings in other issues such as betting.  I don't mind a wager if it is my game against yours but not if you have twenty extra shots to buy your way to 15 under instead of 5 under.  Again, where does it end?  The shoe wedge?  The hole in the pocket?  Selective memory?

The "selective memory" option seems to be the most effective, it's your mind's way of protecting you from extremely unpleasant memories especially when it pertains to golf. :-D

[Elmer]

But I disagree that there is not a point to drawing a distinction between different types of cheating in one of those types of scrambles.  Holing out the tap-in par instead of wasting time marking it before the other three have had a crack at the birdie is "technically" against the rules, but that is not really a big deal.  I also don't find it terribly necessary to pull out the driver and measure the exact 1 club (or whatever the rule is) for each guy to hit each non tee shot.  Again, probably technically against the rules, but not cheating.

It is funny that I encountered this very scenario this year. Typically with my normal scramble 4some if we are putting for birdie and get one with in the grip of a putter, we consider that par if it is super close or tap it in, and continue on putting for birdie. I know it is "technically" not proper, but it moves us along and keeps us from marking a 6" putt and holding up groups behind us.  a gimme is a gimme!

Now mid summer I played in a charity scramble with 3 guys I did not know. One of the golfers was mid 20 something kid, who dressed, acted and played like he is headed for the pro's! He has a John Daly Swing and insisted upon hitting a 2iron off the tee. While he insisted he could out drive my 260 yard drive with a 2 iron, he tended to be 100 yards short and 60 yards to the right.

Anyway when putting I put a ball 2 inches from the hole. I walked up taped it in and declared "we have our par, but go for birdie". After everyone else missed the birdie putt, Mr PGA marked my spot and proceeded to put for a par. This went on for 17 holes!

Of course Mr PGA had no problem improving his lie when it was on a brown out. He had no issue teeing a 2nd time for a guy who decided to take the whole off.

Once again folks it is a scramble and a 2" putt that precedes a birdie attempt is not winning me the masters!

But by all means, flame on!

Since my first reply, the issue of using illegal clubs in scrambles has come up.  This summer, I saw a trend in scrambles that upsets me and goes in the same vein as using illegal clubs in scrambles.  Since scrambles are normally money raising events, I am seeing those running the events selling tickets for "Mulligans".  Those who buy the most "Mulligan Tickets" normally win the scramble.  Where does it end?  Whether it is an illegal club or a foursome has twenty extra shots, the integrity of the game comes into question.  Find another way to raise money.  I will not play in a scramble that sells the "Mulligan Tickets" because it brings in other issues such as betting.  I don't mind a wager if it is my game against yours but not if you have twenty extra shots to buy your way to 15 under instead of 5 under.  Again, where does it end?  The shoe wedge?  The hole in the pocket?  Selective memory?

I play another scramble during the summer which raises money for some scholarship fund. They sell $25 "rescue packs". In this pack you get 4 different lengths of string. If a putt is within the length you can call it gimme. I think the longest string is about 3 ft. Also in the pack is the ability to "move up" and hit from the ladies tee on 1 hole. You also have the ability to "Pass-Kick-Punt" which involves thrown (not as easy as you think), foot wedge and kick the ball. And 1 mulligan.

The organizers indicate that you have write down on the score card where you use these.

It gets outlandish and you have no chance of winning if you dont buy and use one. The winning group is usually around a dozen under if not more.

But they do this to raise money, because people will buy them because it makes it fun for those of us who can play decent golf and allows not so decent golfers the chance to be somewhat competitive and have fun!

[neophyte]

Until the USGA starts to measure clubs COR at all swing speeds - 90, 100, 110, 120 mph and publicizes them.  It is mechanically possible for pro speeds to have a higher COR.

Just because at 90 mph a club has a COR that is under the limit.  That same club could for some one who swings 120 mph  have a COR way over the max limit and be legal.

Bubba and John don't need a boost.  people who hit under 200 yards could use the boost.

[newtogolf]

Since my first reply, the issue of using illegal clubs in scrambles has come up.  This summer, I saw a trend in scrambles that upsets me and goes in the same vein as using illegal clubs in scrambles.  Since scrambles are normally money raising events, I am seeing those running the events selling tickets for "Mulligans".  Those who buy the most "Mulligan Tickets" normally win the scramble.  Where does it end?  Whether it is an illegal club or a foursome has twenty extra shots, the integrity of the game comes into question.  Find another way to raise money.  I will not play in a scramble that sells the "Mulligan Tickets" because it brings in other issues such as betting.  I don't mind a wager if it is my game against yours but not if you have twenty extra shots to buy your way to 15 under instead of 5 under.  Again, where does it end?  The shoe wedge?  The hole in the pocket?  Selective memory?

IMO charity scrambles are all about the charity.  The fact you get to play a round of golf with some friends or co-workers is just a bonus.  It's uncomfortable for charity organizers to hit up people for extra money so they came up with "cheaters packs" to make the golf more "fun" for some but the real purpose is to raise more money for the charity.  I see the "cheater packs" getting more extravagant and more expensive so they can raise even more money, that's why they are there.

[Moppy]

When they make one with a gyroscope in the head to fix my swing plane, count me in.

[turtleback]

IMO charity scrambles are all about the charity.  The fact you get to play a round of golf with some friends or co-workers is just a bonus.  It's uncomfortable for charity organizers to hit up people for extra money so they came up with "cheaters packs" to make the golf more "fun" for some but the real purpose is to raise more money for the charity.  I see the "cheater packs" getting more extravagant and more expensive so they can raise even more money, that's why they are there.

There is a gigantic difference, ethically, IMO, between taking advantage of special "scramble" rules, even such silliness as paid for mulligans and "cheater packs" and strings and throwing the ball, and then using that as an excuse for your own unauthorized departures from the stated rules.  The former is entering into the spirit of the event.  The latter is trying to steal the prizes by cheating.  They are not the same.  Now everyone expects cheating in scrambles (precisely because of that ethically challenged mindset that has now become acceptable) so it is not that big a deal, IMO.

But it is still cheating.

[graham57]

Are you a professional player?  Or an amateur who plays in high level tournaments?  If not then your wedges won't be nonconforming until 2024, as long as they were not manufactured after 2010.  That rule only applies to pros and very high level amateurs until that deadline.

Far from being either! This information (thanks for it) would have been a real comfort a few weeks ago - now I just switched to Vokey SM4's. I guess I need to read the small print next time! Might as well get used to them now, though.

[Lihu]

Until the USGA starts to measure clubs COR at all swing speeds - 90, 100, 110, 120 mph and publicizes them.  It is mechanically possible for pro speeds to have a higher COR.

Just because at 90 mph a club has a COR that is under the limit.  That same club could for some one who swings 120 mph  have a COR way over the max limit and be legal.

Bubba and John don't need a boost.  people who hit under 200 yards could use the boost.

Actually, this makes some sense.

[isukgolf]

Still feel there should recreational standards for golf ... just look at baseball for examples ... but that topic has been hammered to death and is a no-win. With that said, I find there are drivers that are "legal" that fits my needs just fine ... and when I swing "correctly" I get my 15 yards extra ... I need to spend more time on the 5 keys than hoping a "club" will fix it for me ...

[newtogolf]

There is a gigantic difference, ethically, IMO, between taking advantage of special "scramble" rules, even such silliness as paid for mulligans and "cheater packs" and strings and throwing the ball, and then using that as an excuse for your own unauthorized departures from the stated rules.  The former is entering into the spirit of the event.  The latter is trying to steal the prizes by cheating.  They are not the same.  Now everyone expects cheating in scrambles (precisely because of that ethically challenged mindset that has now become acceptable) so it is not that big a deal, IMO.

But it is still cheating.

I agree 100%, my point was that scramble sponsors will continue to offer packages that permit the stretching of the rules and if one doesn't like that a team buys more mulligans or longer string than they are willing to spend then they should avoid such scrambles or lower their expectations to win.

Regardless of the cheater packages that a scramble sponsors, the golfers shouldn't cheat outside of the scramble rules.

[Golfingdad]

I agree 100%, my point was that scramble sponsors will continue to offer packages that permit the stretching of the rules and if one doesn't like that a team buys more mulligans or longer string than they are willing to spend then they should avoid such scrambles or lower their expectations to win.

Regardless of the cheater packages that a scramble sponsors, the golfers shouldn't cheat outside of the scramble rules.

I agree too.

There is one scenario where it would be acceptable though:

I won a 3 wood in a long drive contest in a fundraiser (not charity though) scramble tournament.  It was promoted by Sonartec, and the catch of the contest was you used their 3 wood to hit the drive for that particular competition.  So if the non-conforming club was the prize and the club used to obtain said prize, that would be well within the rules of that side competition.

[Vinsk]

205yds is boomin it?

[Lihu]

205yds is boomin it?

Who stated this?

[spikemk]

Who wants to be a cheater?  Course not.  But what if the club was 15* loft, and had a shaft 43 inches long and was outside the parameters of the 'conforming' stats? And you could hit the ball further with that club than your 10.5* 'conforming' driver.   Such a club would be deemed legal for play. So let's get on those club makers for super-trampoline 15* drivers. I'd grab one for sure (if under $100).

[spikemk]

It's always been about operational error , not my tools ! ;0)

[ScouseJohnny]

I grew tired of this lazy acceptance of cheating in scrambles, which is why I no longer play in them. Once you've decided that cheating is OK in scrambles then why bother hitting out of the bunker at all - why not just pick it up and throw it on the green? Tacitly accepting that there are, apparently, acceptable "degrees of cheating" in scrambles is slightly more depressing than the cheating itself. As many people here have noted, even scrambles have rules. If the rules say to drop a ball within one club length of the ball selected for play, that doesn't mean placing on the fairway ten feet away from the selected ball which was lying in the light rough - but hey, it's a scramble, so we should interpret the rules in a laissez-faire manner, right? The longest drive ended up in the water so let's play that one, but if we kinda hit from somewhere near the edge of the lake that's probably OK - and the ball was only just in the water - like, maybe a couple of feet or so, so a penalty isn't an issue here coz it isn't really a drop - hey, look, the beer cart! yippee!

Some people here commented about the carts populated with people who only play once a year at the company's charity scramble, a set of rusty Hippo irons from the early 1990s retrieved from the back of the garage that morning strapped to the back of the cart, and a cooler full of PBR. I've met those people, but I've also seen scrambles taken far too seriously (in terms of winning, that is), by golfers who really should know better. It's a bit dismal, actually, sitting at the clubhouse bar watching the net scores in the 40s and low 50s being added to the whiteboard, whereupon the victors loudly celebrate success in their achievement....At one scramble I played, at least the local Nissan dealer was bright enough to spend the whole tournament sitting by the green on the par 3 with the Altima he was offering up as the prize for an ace. God knows what might have happened otherwise....Someone might have become confused as to where the tee was and chipped in from the fringe or something....

If it's a non-conforming driver then don't play it in competitions (personally, I wouldn't play it at all) - unless the local rules for your scramble say "non-conforming clubs are allowed" then it's cheating to play it in that scramble, too.

Apologies for the rant - but this cheating in scrambles thing really gets my goat. Mistakes happen in interpreting rules, I accept that - that can happen to anyone from a raw beginner up to a touring pro. But the "it's a scramble so it isn't really cheating" approach bothers me. As would playing with a non-conforming driver.

[avmech]

A club that would make my shots another 20 yards further.....................................................into the woods? no thanks

Seriously, strictly legal here

[RickK]

No, I play in a tournament league (20 plus events each year) and I also play in other tournaments that are played under USGA Rules of Golf.  So, no need for me to use an illegal driver even if for not tournament rounds.  I maintain a USGA handicap and I want to post every score...legally.