PGA Tour Players WD Too Often

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SavvySwede

Not really, the kind of injuries pros encounter are typically chronic injuries that flare up from time to time.  They are more likely to injure themselves when playing poorly because poor swings=poor mechanics=more compensations=more risk of injury

Their mechanics don't change from day to day, their poor swings are the same as their good swings.. I don't see the connection between playing poorly and getting injured..

+1.

It's hard to defend 7 WDs in 144 player field tournament.   These guy are trained to be fit, and in the prime of their lives.    I suspect the wind & poor score injured a few of these players' egos enough to WD.

[Abu3baid]

You obviously haven't played injured. Try playing 18 with a sore wrist and tell me you're not compensating somehow to protect it.

We are talking about cause and effect here, you said that poor mechanics lead to injury and that isn't the same as I have a lingering injury already and I'm trying to play on it.. And his making compensations or whatever. I am willing to let you change your approach though, did all of the players that WD have a chronic injury that caused them to WD?

[jamo]

Lets say I have a cold (or my back hurts, or I have a migraine, or I sprained my ankle). And for some reason I'm not going to get paid regardless of whether I go to work tomorrow. Under situation A) I have a ton of stuff to get done and I'm on a tight schedule and if I don't go in I'll just have to work extra hard next week to make up for it. Under situation B) I don't have much to do and I'll be bored all day even if I do go to work. I'm quite likely to go to work under A). Not so much for B). It's the same for golfers.

[billchao]

I suspect the wind & poor score injured a few of these players' egos enough to WD.

I'm still having trouble with this argument. You think these players played poorly so they faked injuries and withdrew, but don't believe that they were previously injured, which caused them to play poorly?

We are talking about cause and effect here, you said that poor mechanics lead to injury and that isn't the same as I have a lingering injury already and I'm trying to play on it.. And his making compensations or whatever.

I am willing to let you change your approach though, did all of the players that WD have a chronic injury that caused them to WD?

It doesn't have to be a chronic injury, Eyad. Maybe the player hurt himself during the pro-am, or the practice round, or at any time between their last tournament and the current one. I'm a hack and I've skipped golf on days when I woke up with a stiff back or neck, for example. Nothing to gain from that but possibly causing more harm, and it's definitely hard to play golf like that.

I think it's just a fluke week, and the high number of WD's is completely coincidental. I just looked back at the results of every tournament so far this year, and this is the first one where there has been more than 3 WD's. Without doing the math, I'd put the average at less than 2 per tournament, and some players who MC shot some really awful scores (so I'm reluctant to say that ego is a reason for people to WD). This hardly qualifies as an epidemic.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

I suspect the wind & poor score injured a few of these players' egos enough to WD.

I'm still having trouble with this argument. You think these players played poorly so they faked injuries and withdrew, but don't believe that they were previously injured, which caused them to play poorly?

I think it's just a fluke week, and the high number of WD's is completely coincidental. I just looked back at the results of every tournament so far this year, and this is the first one where there has been more than 3 WD's. Without doing the math, I'd put the average at less than 2 per tournament, and some players who MC shot some really awful scores (so I'm reluctant to say that ego is a reason for people to WD). This hardly qualifies as an epidemic.

I don't think and said it is an epidemic.   As I said in one post, I see 1 - 3 WDs per tournament on both PGA & LPGA tours.  My point was that there should be a stronger penalty (hefty fine, mandatory suspension) to deter injury fakers to quit when they have a poor showing in early round.   I agree that it can penalize honest players with real injury but it can actually prevent injured players from entering a tournament, or come back too quickly (with a mandatory suspension) from an existing injury.    My 2 cents.

[billchao]

I don't think and said it is an epidemic.

You said it was excessive. I paraphrased. The fact that you feel this issue needs to be addressed implies at least that you feel it's a problem.

As I said in one post, I see 1 - 3 WDs per tournament on both PGA & LPGA tours.

I didn't check the LPGA Tour. Like I said, it's just this week. I'd expect at least 1 WD out of the field every week (no way all 100-150 players stay healthy at any given week). There were a few tournaments with no WD's, too.

My point was that there should be a stronger penalty (hefty fine, mandatory suspension) to deter injury fakers to quit when they have a poor showing in early round.   I agree that it can penalize honest players with real injury but it can actually prevent injured players from entering a tournament, or come back too quickly (with a mandatory suspension) from an existing injury.

If you can find a reasonable criteria that determines if a player is faking an injury, then I'd probably support penalizing them somehow. If your solution involves penalizing honest players as collateral damage, I can't agree with that one bit. I'd rather let the few fakers slide than punish the innocent.

[dkolo]

Valero - 7 WDs out of 144 players.  That's about 5% of total participants.    I think the only other sports that may approach that high injury rate are a few of the contact sports.

Comparing it to other sports is a bad idea. In baseball, hockey, football, and basketball, there are substitutions, days off, breaks in the action, etc. In golf, you're playing for 5-6 hours straight, four days in a row, not to mention the ancillary practice rounds, pro-ams, and workout / range work. You can hide an injury more easily in other sports. If you're injured in golf, you have two choices: withdraw or play through it. You can't sit out one round or have someone else sub in for the remainder of the round and pick it up again tomorrow after getting treatment.

I don't think and said it is an epidemic.   As I said in one post, I see 1 - 3 WDs per tournament on both PGA & LPGA tours.  My point was that there should be a stronger penalty (hefty fine, mandatory suspension) to deter injury fakers to quit when they have a poor showing in early round.   I agree that it can penalize honest players with real injury but it can actually prevent injured players from entering a tournament, or come back too quickly (with a mandatory suspension) from an existing injury.    My 2 cents.

I maintain my objection to you characterizing these guys as fakers, but even taking your claims as true, what is the problem we're solving? Guys who weren't going to make the cut withdrew early. What are we achieving by punishing them and, conversely, what benefit are we extracting by having them finish out until they were cut?

[SavvySwede]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SavvySwede

You obviously haven't played injured. Try playing 18 with a sore wrist and tell me you're not compensating somehow to protect it.

We are talking about cause and effect here, 1. you said that poor mechanics lead to injury and that isn't the same as I have a lingering injury already and I'm trying to play on it.. And his making compensations or whatever.

2. I am willing to let you change your approach though, 3. did all of the players that WD have a chronic injury that caused them to WD?

1. The golf swing is a powerful move, poor form can hurt you just the same a poor form lifting weights. I've seen elite weightlifters slip up using a weight they normally shouldn't have a problem with, but it happens. We just like to disregard pro golfers because the strains of their lifestyle are less obvious. Poor swings can lead to injury and injury can lead to poor swings.

2. Oh how gracious of you.

3. I guess it has be everyone or no one , doesn't it?

[Divot Master]

If I recall correctly, withdrawing from a tournament mid-round makes you ineligible for the Vardon trophy.  That is the season-long award for lowest average score.  Not sure if there is a cash prize or just a trophy.  Of course, there are probably only about 20 pros who have a realistic chance at this.  Would not be any kind of a deterrent for the rest of the field.

[dkolo]

If I recall correctly, withdrawing from a tournament mid-round makes you ineligible for the Vardon trophy.  That is the season-long award for lowest average score.  Not sure if there is a cash prize or just a trophy.  Of course, there are probably only about 20 pros who have a realistic chance at this.  Would not be any kind of a deterrent for the rest of the field.

That's correct. Bae might've had a shot. He's 9th on the money list, so he's had a reasonably good year so far.

[Billbill13]

I honestly don't see any problems with players WD'ing if they are not hurt, mildly hurt or actually hurt. They are basically independent contractors who have the right to quit working when they want to.  The repercussions should be between them and their sponsors and keeping their tour cards qualified for.

If you bought a ticket to see a specific player play for a baseball team and when you got to the stadium you would be upset if they took the day off but you would still stay and watch. I understand people paying to go see their favorite players play golf but there is always a chance you won't see them. And yes, a player playing in a tournament and WD'ing did take away a spot from somebody else who could have played but thats the ups and downs of their profession.

[Golfingdad]

I honestly don't see any problems with players WD'ing if they are not hurt, mildly hurt or actually hurt. They are basically independent contractors who have the right to quit working when they want to.  The repercussions should be between them and their sponsors and keeping their tour cards qualified for. If you bought a ticket to see a specific player play for a baseball team and when you got to the stadium you would be upset if they took the day off but you would still stay and watch. I understand people paying to go see their favorite players play golf but there is always a chance you won't see them. And yes, a player playing in a tournament and WD'ing did take away a spot from somebody else who could have played but thats the ups and downs of their profession.

Bingo. To all of it (as well as the previous few posts) :)

[Antinomy]

There is a cut anyway. Does it matter if they split on Thursday rather than Friday? Instead of making the players make an injury excuse, I think the Tour should have a mercy resignation option for those players who score so badly on Thursday that they have no chance of making the cut. This would be especially useful during those parts of the year that the tournaments are in danger of running out of daylight.

[Quadhole]

Lets say I have a cold (or my back hurts, or I have a migraine, or I sprained my ankle). And for some reason I'm not going to get paid regardless of whether I go to work tomorrow. Under situation A) I have a ton of stuff to get done and I'm on a tight schedule and if I don't go in I'll just have to work extra hard next week to make up for it. Under situation B) I don't have much to do and I'll be bored all day even if I do go to work.

I'm quite likely to go to work under A). Not so much for B). It's the same for golfers.

Great.... Let's just have anyone that is out there ENTERTAINING customers have the right to leave .... let's say (whenever they feel like it). no rule, no need for a fake excuse, real or not.  Shoot a 75 and the leader has a 63, retire... Now we get 20 out on day one, 20 more during the 2nd day, not at the end of the day, but going thru it. Then on Saturday we can offer up a "walk off rule" Not feelin up to it, walk off.... No chance of winning and the 54th place 13K means nothing, take off...

The whole point is that it is getting a little worse. It is because they make a lot of money and live a much more pristine life. It happened so little back in the 90s and even less before that, with bad clubs, poor conditions and the courses ? If they dont put up a block of some type, it will just keep growing. Why ? Because if Tom does it, then I deserve the right to do it too, after all, I make more than Tom and am much busier than him....

I know this is how the posts would go. It is happening, fake WD's, but those at the top want to pretend it isn't until it is a big problem. THat is exactly what happens with all things. Of course this is no where as important as drugs, steroids, etc.... Everyone turns a blind eye until it gets out in the open, then every act like, OMG ! i didn't know that was happening... I for one had no clue and if I knew... Blah Blah.... How many reporters, commentators, etc. talk as if steroids are the worst thing to ever happen to sports, yet they were in the locker rooms and knew of it. Never said a word because if they had, they would have been black listed. Once it was in the open they were on the band wagon...

Gross to watch so many adult men act like this and never ever be the one to step up.

It was sad listening to mike and mike, and the others talk about the guy at Penn state that walked into the locker room. I know Mike Greenburg would have tucked tail, walked out and never said a word. He isn't man enough, plus he had a career to think about. it is so easy to say 'what you would have done"

This will come to a head later, rather than sooner as each player takes his turn. I am sure there are some that hate it and sooner or later they will step up. Until then, we can have the high road guys do what they always do. Those in charge can continue acting like it is not happening, and life goes on....

[Abu3baid]

Great.... Let's just have anyone that is out there ENTERTAINING customers have the right to leave .... let's say (whenever they feel like it). no rule, no need for a fake excuse, real or not.  Shoot a 75 and the leader has a 63, retire... Now we get 20 out on day one, 20 more during the 2nd day, not at the end of the day, but going thru it. Then on Saturday we can offer up a "walk off rule" Not feelin up to it, walk off.... No chance of winning and the 54th place 13K means nothing, take off... The whole point is that it is getting a little worse. It is because they make a lot of money and live a much more pristine life. It happened so little back in the 90s and even less before that, with bad clubs, poor conditions and the courses ? If they dont put up a block of some type, it will just keep growing. Why ? Because if Tom does it, then I deserve the right to do it too, after all, I make more than Tom and am much busier than him.... I know this is how the posts would go. It is happening, fake WD's, but those at the top want to pretend it isn't until it is a big problem. THat is exactly what happens with all things. Of course this is no where as important as drugs, steroids, etc.... Everyone turns a blind eye until it gets out in the open, then every act like, OMG ! i didn't know that was happening... I for one had no clue and if I knew... Blah Blah.... How many reporters, commentators, etc. talk as if steroids are the worst thing to ever happen to sports, yet they were in the locker rooms and knew of it. Never said a word because if they had, they would have been black listed. Once it was in the open they were on the band wagon... Gross to watch so many adult men act like this and never ever be the one to step up. It was sad listening to mike and mike, and the others talk about the guy at Penn state that walked into the locker room. I know Mike Greenburg would have tucked tail, walked out and never said a word. He isn't man enough, plus he had a career to think about. it is so easy to say 'what you would have done" This will come to a head later, rather than sooner as each player takes his turn. I am sure there are some that hate it and sooner or later they will step up. Until then, we can have the high road guys do what they always do. Those in charge can continue acting like it is not happening, and life goes on....

Your first post was a little more collected in my opinion.. Look how about you do some statistical analysis of the last 3 years and come back with names of the biggest offenders.. I agree it would be an issue of proven, and that 7 in one tourney seems like a crazy number, but please build your case instead of the above rant of the whole world falling apart. Sheesh

[dkolo]

Great.... Let's just have anyone that is out there ENTERTAINING customers have the right to leave .... let's say (whenever they feel like it). no rule, no need for a fake excuse, real or not.  Shoot a 75 and the leader has a 63, retire... Now we get 20 out on day one, 20 more during the 2nd day, not at the end of the day, but going thru it. Then on Saturday we can offer up a "walk off rule" Not feelin up to it, walk off.... No chance of winning and the 54th place 13K means nothing, take off...

The whole point is that it is getting a little worse. It is because they make a lot of money and live a much more pristine life. It happened so little back in the 90s and even less before that, with bad clubs, poor conditions and the courses ? If they dont put up a block of some type, it will just keep growing. Why ? Because if Tom does it, then I deserve the right to do it too, after all, I make more than Tom and am much busier than him....

I know this is how the posts would go. It is happening, fake WD's, but those at the top want to pretend it isn't until it is a big problem. THat is exactly what happens with all things. Of course this is no where as important as drugs, steroids, etc.... Everyone turns a blind eye until it gets out in the open, then every act like, OMG ! i didn't know that was happening... I for one had no clue and if I knew... Blah Blah.... How many reporters, commentators, etc. talk as if steroids are the worst thing to ever happen to sports, yet they were in the locker rooms and knew of it. Never said a word because if they had, they would have been black listed. Once it was in the open they were on the band wagon...

Gross to watch so many adult men act like this and never ever be the one to step up.

It was sad listening to mike and mike, and the others talk about the guy at Penn state that walked into the locker room. I know Mike Greenburg would have tucked tail, walked out and never said a word. He isn't man enough, plus he had a career to think about. it is so easy to say 'what you would have done"

This will come to a head later, rather than sooner as each player takes his turn. I am sure there are some that hate it and sooner or later they will step up. Until then, we can have the high road guys do what they always do. Those in charge can continue acting like it is not happening, and life goes on....

I pulled a random year from the 1990s and went to check the results for the Texas Open. In 1995, 14 (!!) players withdrew. 3 more were DQed. Stop stirring up hysteria just because you have bad memory. These things happen. They've always happened. Life goes on.

Here, you can even check for yourself and everything:

http://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/valero-texas-open/past-results.html

[CarlSpackler]

I'm not in their body or head, so I can't say one way or another. Nobody else can either.

[newtogolf]

Great.... Let's just have anyone that is out there ENTERTAINING customers have the right to leave .... let's say (whenever they feel like it). no rule, no need for a fake excuse, real or not.  Shoot a 75 and the leader has a 63, retire... Now we get 20 out on day one, 20 more during the 2nd day, not at the end of the day, but going thru it. Then on Saturday we can offer up a "walk off rule" Not feelin up to it, walk off.... No chance of winning and the 54th place 13K means nothing, take off...

I think you're losing focus on what their job is.  Their primary job is to win and place high in golf tournaments, not ENTERTAIN.  No one makes the PGA Tour because they are a good entertainer, they make it because of their golf skills.  They may get paid more endorsement money if they are fan friendly or entertaining but that's not their job.  Phil doesn't get extra money from the tournament he won because he was a good entertainer.

As others have also pointed out, they are independent contractors not employees of the PGA Tour.  I've been an independent contractor, I got paid for the hours I worked.  If I didn't feel like working one day I forfeited the income I'd have made for that day.  If I missed an excessive amount of days I'd risk termination just as if a pro golfer withdraws from too many tournaments they risk losing their pro card if they don't earn enough in the tournaments they played in.

If you want to second guess and penalize every pro golfer that withdraws from a tournament you can expect the pro's will look to unionize and fight it.