The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[RGoosen]

You don't like it... man up and put up the bucks to join a private club where you don't have to put up with the riffraff, but don't be surprised if the "elite" there consider you the riffraff, and would prefer you in the ditch! :-$

Okay Kevin Na.

[djfajt71]

You are missing the point.  Why do certain people get to depict how other golfers play their own games?  Why do they have to speed up play during a leisure round?  If you hate slow play, go at times where the course is more open or join a private course.  Do not expect other people to change their ways for you.

Why does everybody have to conform to your idealistic view of golf?  Maybe everybody should slow down and enjoy their time on the course more.  Again, why do you personally get to set the rules for how others spend their leisure time?  I think the real question is why is it a goal to finish so fast?  Do you not like being outside on the course?  I think thats a very odd mentality to rush through a game of golf so much that you feel accomplished when you post a fast round, rather than a low scoring round.

I don't hear hockey players saying they wished their games ended faster.  Or football players wanting to shave 15 minutes off their flag football game.

You are comparing apples to oranges.  The sports you chose are closed ended games, they have a defined timeframe. A closer, though not totally similar comparison, would be baseball.  It is closed ended, but not timed.  All we ever hear about with baseball is what?  Baseball takes too long, hence the game has implemented rules to speed up the game.  The lethargic pace of the games was causing fans to not come to games.

[Moppy]

That's just reality, no threats from me. I'll drive around you.  Point is, if the course is wide open you either let people through or pick up the pace.

You brought violence into the discussion. It is amazing how often that seems to happen with people who purport to be obsessed with the discourtesy of others.  Plus I have no idea who you are talking to. Who is advocating not letting people through?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

He never said it was a right, he just said that's how it is, and despite what Puma said, that's how it is in Denver too.  However, it has nothing to do with pace of play on the course.  It was never a good metaphor because there is a difference between a traffic law and a recommended maximum time to play 18 holes.  It's not a limit, it's a guideline for mediocrity, and it doesn't mean that players shouldn't do their best to better that pace.

If you are playing to your "pace" and the course is stacking up behind you, then you are wrong, no matter if you are within "policy".  That policy is a maximum, not an ideal.  It shouldn't take a genius to see that you must be doing something wrong if you are the slowest group on the course.

Pace of Play is the standard time expected set by the course to maximize enjoyment of the clientele. Along the Front Range ( and likely most everywhere ) this is typically 4:00 to 4:30 depending on the course. Been that way for decades.

When my home course is not busy, I have played in 3:30... but I do not expect to do so with a full tee sheet.

No it is not.  The posted time is the maximum time that the course feels is acceptable for play.  In many cases they have actually made the effort to analyze actual play during peak periods to determine the what is possible and realistic when the course is fully loaded.  Ask any course pro worth his pay and he will tell you that the course can and should be played faster than those times whenever possible.

As for the full tee sheet, if you are playing at 11 AM then you will probably struggle to hit the posted time because of players in front of you who think like you do, that they can play as slowly as they like as long as they hit the posted time on the mark.  If you play at 7 AM then you had better beat that time or you will be part of the cause of slower play.  If you play early and play to the mark, then everyone behind you will be over that time, simply because you have not left them time to deal with any trouble.  The farther back on the course you go, the worse it is going to be.  That just happens to be how the flow of players on a course seems to work.  Ideally everyone plays at the same pace as that first group, but it just doesn't happen that way.  It seems like a natural inclination for each group to leave themselves a little "wiggle room", and that just backs up the flow behind them, a little more with each successive group that isn't staying right up on the heels of those in front.

Of course according to you, if the guys behind you are staying right on your heels, then you are being rushed and you get pissed about that too, so there is no winning around you.

[colin007]

You mean like when that delay is me?

lol nah, youre cool.

[RGoosen]

No it is not.  The posted time is the maximum time that the course feels is acceptable for play.  In many cases they have actually made the effort to analyze actual play during peak periods to determine the what is possible and realistic when the course is fully loaded.  Ask any course pro worth his pay and he will tell you that the course can and should be played faster than those times whenever possible.   As for the full tee sheet, if you are playing at 11 AM then you will probably struggle to hit the posted time because of players in front of you who think like you do, that they can play as slowly as they like as long as they hit the posted time on the mark.  If you play at 7 AM then you had better beat that time or you will be part of the cause of slower play.  If you play early and play to the mark, then everyone behind you will be over that time, simply because you have not left them time to deal with any trouble.  The farther back on the course you go, the worse it is going to be.  That just happens to be how the flow of players on a course seems to work.  Ideally everyone plays at the same pace as that first group, but it just doesn't happen that way.  It seems like a natural inclination for each group to leave themselves a little "wiggle room", and that just backs up the flow behind them, a little more with each successive group that isn't staying right up on the heels of those in front. Of course according to you, if the guys behind you are staying right on your heels, then you are being rushed and you get pissed about that too, so there is no winning around you.

Excellent post! If I decide to sleep in and play after 10 am then I can't be that upset about playing the maximum pace on a crowded course. I get pissed when I go to the trouble to get an early tee time, only to discover that an early foursome tees off early and thinks that everyone should play at the posted maximum time for the round. If you want to socialize then save it for the 19th hole or over lunch somewhere after your round.

[DaveP043]

I can understand the reason a club would publicize a standard pace of play.  What I don't like is this:

I get pissed when I go to the trouble to get an early tee time, only to discover that an early foursome tees off early and thinks that everyone should play at the posted maximum time for the round. If you want to socialize then save it for the 19th hole or over lunch somewhere after your round.

Some people will use the standard pace of play as an excuse to ignore what is stated so simply in the Etiquette section of the Rules of Golf:

It is a group's responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

I don't care how fast or how slow you're playing.  If there is an open hole in front of you, and someone is waiting on you, you should invite them to play through.

[Fourputt]

I can understand the reason a club would publicize a standard pace of play.  What I don't like is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGoosen

I get pissed when I go to the trouble to get an early tee time, only to discover that an early foursome tees off early and thinks that everyone should play at the posted maximum time for the round. If you want to socialize then save it for the 19th hole or over lunch somewhere after your round.

Some people will use the standard pace of play as an excuse to ignore what is stated so simply in the Etiquette section of the Rules of Golf:

It is a group's responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

I don't care how fast or how slow you're playing.  If there is an open hole in front of you, and someone is waiting on you, you should invite them to play through.

To expand on this:  If letting a group play through simply means that the bunch behind them is now waiting on you, then it's time to rethink your policy.  That means that you are not playing to the pace potential for the course, so it's time to pick up your pace, or pickup your ball and catch up.

No group has the right to be a rolling road block just because they are using their misinterpreted form of etiquette and letting other players play through one group after another.  Those who are stuck farther back in the line will just end up with a ridiculously slow round and the pace will be hashed up for the rest of the day, even though the problem group is sitting at 19th hole congratulating themselves about their "good" etiquette.  That kind of etiquette I can do without.

[nevets88]

[iacas]

Just caught up on this thread.

Kind of wish I hadn't. I probably could have played 27 holes in the time it took me to read this.

Slow players affect everyone.

Fast players don't affect more than the group in front of them, typically, which should let them through.

[jgreen85]

seems like courses should post faster minimum rounds. Does anyone think a course will lose business by saying the acceptable POP is 3.5 hours? I can't imagine someone saying "oh, I can't go there because POP is too fast." I can't see any negatives from this.

[DrvFrShow]

Then I just talked to a friend of mine who got stuck playing a 5 hr round of golf today.... 5 hrs mid week. ... mid-day. And it's only a 69.5/121 6000 yd course for men.

[Fourputt]

seems like courses should post faster minimum rounds. Does anyone think a course will lose business by saying the acceptable POP is 3.5 hours? I can't imagine someone saying "oh, I can't go there because POP is too fast." I can't see any negatives from this.

3½ yes, because that is unrealistic for the general golfing public at this point in time.  But 4½ is too much the other way, doesn't create any incentive for players to do better, especially when there is so little enforcement of even that generous pace.  For most course 4 hours with strict enforcement would start to change the mindset in a positive direction.

[JonMA1]

This is just painful. I don't think I could play this game if I had to endure the horrors both sides of this discussion seem to have. Honestly, those of you who put up with this are real golfers.

I've gone to other courses at peak times, when multiples of foursomes are lined up and waiting to tee off so I know it's real. On these days, I know there will be people pissed due to either slow play or someone hitting into them. Lots of bad feelings. That's when the range seems like a good option.

I feel very fortunate to have only my game to ruin a perfectly good day on the course.

Saturday night, I will call my course to schedule a tee time for Sunday morning - probably around 8 am. I'll get there early and the very nice woman behind the front desk will tell me to head out whenever I'd like. I'll glance down at the schedule and might see that there won't be any else there until 9:30 or 10, which means I'll have the 9 hole course to walk by myself and then a second round with no one in front of me. This time of the year, I'll likely feel good enough to walk a third round of nine. 27 holes of golf and home in time to watch the Lions lose.

[Fourputt]

This is just painful. I don't think I could play this game if I had to endure the horrors both sides of this discussion seem to have. Honestly, those of you who put up with this are real golfers.

I've gone to other courses at peak times, when multiples of foursomes are lined up and waiting to tee off so I know it's real. On these days, I know there will be people pissed due to either slow play or someone hitting into them. Lots of bad feelings. That's when the range seems like a good option.

I feel very fortunate to have only my game to ruin a perfectly good day on the course.

Saturday night, I will call my course to schedule a tee time for Sunday morning - probably around 8 am. I'll get there early and the very nice woman behind the front desk will tell me to head out whenever I'd like. I'll glance down at the schedule and might see that there won't be any else there until 9:30 or 10, which means I'll have the 9 hole course to walk by myself and then a second round with no one in front of me. This time of the year, I'll likely feel good enough to walk a third round of nine. 27 holes of golf and home in time to watch the Lions lose.

I'm in the same situation as you are.  I don't even bother to call.  But the downside is that I don't have the variety or selection of courses that I had available when I lived in the Denver area.

[JonMA1]

I'm in the same situation as you are.  I don't even bother to call.  But the downside is that I don't have the variety or selection of courses that I had available when I lived in the Denver area.

Don't have to call? Nice.

You're right, the monotony can be a downside - especially on a 9 hole course. But overall, that's preferable over the madness and it's a nice course. As far as I know, its the only course around here that has bent grass fairways (I don't know much about golf course grasses, but these fairways are beautiful IMO). The yearly (unlimited) membership is only $99 and they let you walk.

Back on topic...perhaps because my area is quite rural, there are a few other courses that are equally sparse at those times when I can play. What's nice is that there's little issue letting someone play through, so playing faster or slower isn't a big deal. This is a great time of the year if you like uncrowded conditions and don't mind cooler temps. Unfortunately, the days are getting shorter.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I'm in the same situation as you are.  I don't even bother to call.  But the downside is that I don't have the variety or selection of courses that I had available when I lived in the Denver area.

Don't have to call? Nice.

You're right, the monotony can be a downside - especially on a 9 hole course. But overall, that's preferable over the madness and it's a nice course. As far as I know, its the only course around here that has bent grass fairways (I don't know much about golf course grasses, but these fairways are beautiful IMO). The yearly (unlimited) membership is only $99 and they let you walk.

Back on topic...perhaps because my area is quite rural, there are a few other courses that are equally sparse at those times when I can play. What's nice is that there's little issue letting someone play through, so playing faster or slower isn't a big deal. This is a great time of the year if you like uncrowded conditions and don't mind cooler temps. Unfortunately, the days are getting shorter.

At the 9 hole course that we joined just 5 miles up the highway, I can start on 1, 3, 5 or 7, as all are about the same distance from the clubhouse.  When I play the 18 hole course that's a bit farther away (20 minute drive), I just pick 1 or 10 depending on what I see on the course.  Around here there has never been a pace of play issue, but we rarely play on weekends.

[jgreen85]

3½ yes, because that is unrealistic for the general golfing public at this point in time.  But 4½ is too much the other way, doesn't create any incentive for players to do better, especially when there is so little enforcement of even that generous pace.  For most course 4 hours with strict enforcement would start to change the mindset in a positive direction.

I'm not advocating strict enforcement of the 3.5 hrs. I'm only recommending that become the expectation and allow people to shoot for the moon and if they miss, land among the stars. A lot of people fall back to the "hey, POP is 4.5 hrs and I'm on pace." This removes that excuse.