Rule Prohibiting Caddies/Partners from Lining up Players

[iacas]

11 hours ago, klund said:

So i will take your word for it that almost everyone does it there and that it is a huge issue which need a change of the Rules of Golf because i think you agree that its not a global golf issue as we have 2 scenarios where this is a issue. Kids tournaments with strange over ambitious parents and top level tournament players. 

A easier solution would be to ban the caddies for those tournaments where this is a real issue.

That's hardly an "easier solution." My solution changes a few words in an already existing rule, and doesn't affect others. Caddies, on the other hand, are integral to the game, and are used by a BUNCH of golfers every year. Even amateurs.

10 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Not sure if that's necessarily easier, but it does bring up a question for me:. Could they make a COC for the kids tour to the same effect?  Prohibiting caddies from standing on players line after address?

No. And I chose "stance" instead of "address" for a reason.

9 hours ago, Patch said:

Just thinking about all the times I have golfed at courses that requires a caddy be used. How that caddy in addition to helping me read unfamiliar greens, has given me advice on how to play other shots from the tee to the green.  Has helped me pick the right club based on what he/she knew about my game.

The caddie still gets to do those things. The rules change I proposed above affects only a small part of what they can and cannot do.

9 hours ago, Patch said:

If a caddy is not allowed to help on the green

That's not what I wrote, nor would the proposed rules change prevent a caddie from being "allowed to help on the green."

9 hours ago, Patch said:

If a caddy is not allowed to help on the green, should they not also  give advice in other areas of one's golf game? If a course requires a caddy, and the caddy gives advice, does the golfer not count their score due to a new rule chnge? Do I pay the extra bucks  to have another person just carry my bag? 

Read what's written, please.

1 hour ago, Martyn W said:

1 .Caddies have always been part of the game, Tufts refers to a caddie as "my faithful associate" in Principles. I see no reason to diminish this well established relationship.

How much does it diminish it? It diminishes it in the interest of slow play (and, also, players not looking like they can perform the basic task of lining themselves up).

1 hour ago, Martyn W said:

2. The Rules already permit assistance in alignment (laying a club on the ground, for example), should this be prohibited also?

Sure, get rid of that too, but this topic's not really about that. But seriously, when's the last time you saw anyone actually do that? Get rid of it, too, for the same reasons: slow play.

Slow play is a big issue. This not only looks stupid, but contributes to slow play quite a bit. Not just on the Tours, but kids are being taught to do this growing up, as parents think they're helping their kids get every advantage possible.

[Patch]

After reading all the positives, negatives in this thread, I still stand by my "no" vote. You can't pick and choose what a caddy can, and can't do. It's either all, or nothing.  Leave the caddy alone and let them continue to be a part of the team and earn a living doing what their employer requires them to do. 

 

[iacas]

26 minutes ago, Patch said:

After reading all the positives, negatives in this thread, I still stand by my "no" vote. You can't pick and choose what a caddy can, and can't do. It's either all, or nothing.  Leave the caddy alone and let them continue to be a part of the team and earn a living doing what their employer requires them to do. 

Yes, you can! The rules already do so. The caddie can't stand on the player's line while he's making the stroke. This just moves that requirement that the caddie get off the line ("extension of the line") sooner in the interests of speeding up play.

BTW, should I say "line" in this topic, I mean "extension of line" or "extension of putt" or whatever is appropriate. "Line" will be a sort of shorthand here.

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, Patch said:

After reading all the positives, negatives in this thread, I still stand by my "no" vote. You can't pick and choose what a caddy can, and can't do. It's either all, or nothing.  Leave the caddy alone and let them continue to be a part of the team and earn a living doing what their employer requires them to do. 

 

There are a number of specific prohibitions involving a caddie's responsibilities.  The caddie cannot lift, replace or drop the player's ball, although he is allowed to mark it.  He can't touch the green when indicating a line for putting.  He can't hold an umbrella over the player while a stroke is made.  I'm sure that there are more, but these came right to mind.

[newtogolf]

I voted yes, we all believe the golfers can align their own putts so if it's just for a bit of added psychological benefit, there's no need for it.  If it speeds up play and removes any doubt about whether a player can line up their own putts then it's a win for the everyone.

[DrvFrShow]

I voted no. There's already a rule affecting this after you address the ball. I think that's enough. I don't think this would speed up play that much. Also much like the current rule, a rule like this would only affect the pros, high school and college teams, competitive amateurs. It would not affect weekend or weekday golfers since they don't pay much attention anyway. Like the anchored stroke rule, it isn't a win for everyone. 

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

Also much like the current rule, a rule like this would only affect the pros, high school and college teams, competitive amateurs. It would not affect weekend or weekday golfers since they don't pay much attention anyway. Like the anchored stroke rule, it isn't a win for everyone. 

Why is the number of people it affects a bad thing?

It is not really a loss for anyone either, right?

Also, I think it would speed up play considerably. You must not have seen what I've seen.

[sjduffers]

I voted yes, for all the reasons that @iacas pointed out. I had no idea this was going on in kids tournaments, but yes, that makes it even worse as it is building in a lifetime of dependence on something that is fundamental and basic to the golf swing or putt, not to mention the effects on pace of play.  When I see an LPGA Tour member getting lined up by their caddy (for all shots, not just putts), I cringe and wonder why that is even allowed: it looks so stupid that a world-class player can't align themselves on their own whereas every amateur who plays (with no partners) is expected to do it on their own... Excellent point about the pace of play too.

[Golfingdad]

45 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

I voted yes, for all the reasons that @iacas pointed out. I had no idea this was going on in kids tournaments, but yes, that makes it even worse as it is building in a lifetime of dependence on something that is fundamental and basic to the golf swing or putt, not to mention the effects on pace of play.  When I see an LPGA Tour member getting lined up by their caddy (for all shots, not just putts), I cringe and wonder why that is even allowed: it looks so stupid that a world-class player can't align themselves on their own whereas every amateur who plays (with no partners) is expected to do it on their own... Excellent point about the pace of play too.

I don't disagree at all ... but the bold is true for EVERYTHING that a caddy does to help their player, not just getting lined up.  Reading putts, getting yardages, checking wind, keeping them dry in the elements, all of the preround stuff they do, etc, etc.

[sjduffers]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

I don't disagree at all ... but the bold is true for EVERYTHING that a caddy does to help their player, not just getting lined up.  Reading putts, getting yardages, checking wind, keeping them dry in the elements, all of the preround stuff they do, etc, etc.

You're right of course, but those things are about gathering information about what needs to be done (save the confort things such as carrying a bag, keeping the player dry, etc...), not about helping the player to physically do it, which is what alignment is about.

Isn't alignment considered one of the fundamentals of the golf swing? I always heard PGA: posture, grip, alignment...

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Also, I think it would speed up play considerably. You must not have seen what I've seen.

I don't doubt you in regards to the kids - I'll take your word for it.  I imagine they'd just as soon step up and hit it with no regard for their alignment if their parent isn't checking for them.  But I'm going to disagree in regards to the pros.  I think, if anything, it would go the other way.  As it is now, they get to have the guy stand there and just go "yup" and they can swing away with confidence.  Without it, I can see a lot more Kevin Na's and Andrew Loupe's double, triple, and quadruple checking that alignment since they don't have any help.

 

8 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

You're right of course, but those things are about gathering information about what needs to be done (save the confort things such as carrying a bag, keeping the player dry, etc...), not about helping the player to physically do it, which is what alignment is about.

I'm not saying it's the same as those things, but in rebuttal to the "amateurs are expected to do it" argument, I'm just pointing out that that argument doesn't really hold water because amateurs (without caddies, of course) are expected to do EVERYTHING that the caddy does.  Not just this one thing that looks stupid.

[natureboy]

On 12/17/2015 at 2:53 PM, No Mulligans said:

I voted no.  I think it's an unnecessary rule.  I just don't think there is any benefit in having someone help you line up unless you're a beginner.  Certainly PGA pros don't really benefit from being helped.  No need to make a rule where one is not needed.

It's actually fairly common in the women's pro game from what I understand. Probably more for confidence / confirmation than anything, but I still think that's on the player themselves in the spirit of the game. That said it can possibly be gotten around practically by the caddy moving parallel to the line of play far enough back to be close enough to see if the player is aligned to the line of play. Now they might be shouting up to the player to shift right or left? Nothing in Erik's proposed rule stops the caddy from suggesting points on the ground to use for alignment or making observations that a player is tending to set up aimed one way or another so in my view they still keep their role.

10 hours ago, Martyn W said:

2. The Rules already permit assistance in alignment (laying a club on the ground, for example), should this be prohibited also?

Really? I had no idea about this one. In what contexts is it allowed / not allowed?

Edited December 18, 2015 by natureboy

[Rulesman]

16 minutes ago, natureboy said:

eally? I had no idea about this one. In what contexts is it allowed / not allowed?

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions-2012-2015.html#!decision-08,d8-2a-1

[natureboy]

13 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions-2012-2015.html#!decision-08,d8-2a-1

Interesting. Never knew that one. It kind of surprises me. Is it an old / well-established ruling / decision? I'd be inclined to toss out both practices as to me aligning oneself with the topography of the course is part of the game and adding reference points seems like modifying the course. But if it's an old tradition in the game, I would say you probably need to keep caddie alignment too.

Edited December 18, 2015 by natureboy

[Fourputt]

4 hours ago, Rulesman said:

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions-2012-2015.html#!decision-08,d8-2a-1

 

4 hours ago, natureboy said:

Interesting. Never knew that one. It kind of surprises me. Is it an old / well-established ruling / decision? I'd be inclined to toss out both practices as to me aligning oneself with the topography of the course is part of the game and adding reference points seems like modifying the course. But if it's an old tradition in the game, I would say you probably need to keep caddie alignment too.

The thing is, since the club has to be removed before the player makes his stroke, it's only practical if he has someone to assist him (I'm certainly not going to assist my opponent or fellow competitor in this).  It would be impractical to lay down a club, line yourself up to it, then have to pick up the club and move it yourself.  You would lose your alignment in the process.  So while it's allowed, it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

[turtleback]

On 12/18/2015 at 4:59 AM, Martyn W said:

I voted 'no' for two reasons:

1 .Caddies have always been part of the game, Tufts refers to a caddie as "my faithful associate" in Principles. I see no reason to diminish this well established relationship.

2. The Rules already permit assistance in alignment (laying a club on the ground, for example), should this be prohibited also?

I think that before the issue is decided we need to consider what principles we are using.  

I think that one principle SHOULD be, although it currently is not, that a caddie should not be doing things for the player that the player could not do for himself.  If we think about the duties of a caddie, almost every one is something that in other circumstances the player would do for himself, i.e., carry the clubs, or enhance an existing ability of the player, i.e., a second pair of eyes looking for the ball.  The caddies function is to relieve the player of things he could do himself.  

But then there is this alignment thing.  A player cannot physically do that himself.  THAT is what I see as the difference, and the reason that the rule should not allow it.  

[Martyn W]

Caddies have been part of the game for well over four hundred years:  "The first named caddie was Andrew Dickson, who would later become a golf clubmaker in Edinburgh and who acted as fore-caddie for the Duke of York as a boy in 1681 in the Duke's golf match on Leith Links".  

As far as I know, there has never been serious consideration given to limiting the duties/role of the caddie and I see no reason why there should be. I don't buy the pace of play argument, if anything having a caddie improves pace of play.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

As far as I know, there has never been serious consideration given to limiting the duties/role of the caddie and I see no reason why there should be. I don't buy the pace of play argument, if anything having a caddie improves pace of play.

As I've said, the caddie is already prohibited from standing on the line while the player makes the stroke. This simply moves that restriction up a little bit.

And, in this case, it would have a significant positive impact on the pace of play.

This topic is not discussing random or huge ways  to limit what a caddie can and can't do.