Stack-n-Tilt - Still Screwing up Golfers after All These Years

[Dave2512]

Yes and in this case it's not practical. Want to stop swaying back, move the other way. But even his example of swaying back was exaggerated. I see crap swings but nobody doing that. An extreme and unnecessary way to demonstrate something. 

It seems weird compared to what I have seen and read but evidently a common problem for current S&T instruction. 

[Mr. Desmond]

I thought the downfall of S&T was (and still is) insistence on an exaggerated pressure on the front foot during the entire swing. And now it has apparently morphed into some other swing weirdness.

[Dave2512]

Like leaning 45 degrees towards the target and moving your head a foot forward weirdness.

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, Mr. Desmond said:

I thought the downfall of S&T was (and still is) insistence on an exaggerated pressure on the front foot during the entire swing. And now it has apparently morphed into some other swing weirdness.

Yep that's a biggie. Feeling 60% weight forward at A4 is going to to have different results for different people. Also for someone to have 60% pressure on their lead leg you can't make anything close to a functional golf swing, certainly not a centered swing.

Then there is the issue of how the "feel" of 60% changes over time. On day 1 60% forward may keep you centered by after 6 months to achieve that same feel you end up looking like the pictures in the OP.

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

Yes and in this case it's not practical. Want to stop swaying back, move the other way. But even his example of swaying back was exaggerated. I see crap swings but nobody doing that. An extreme and unnecessary way to demonstrate something. 

It seems weird compared to what I have seen and read but evidently a common problem for current S&T instruction. 

Yes, I agree.

In fact, it seems like exaggerating these flaws is somewhat insulting to the student, kind of making a mockery of his swing. I see people doing it all the time on the range when instructing their friends. Some instructors do it as well.

I suppose some people respond well to that sort of teaching, but it's not that useful when overdone like that.

[JetFan1983]

On 12/23/2015 at 6:13 PM, iacas said:

They championed the proper ball flight laws (they weren't the first to do it, or anything, but they did make it a point of emphasis), but then, yeah, I get what you're saying: they post this kind of stuff, then. Who knows…

Even if you do that it's not a true reverse pivot so long as your weight doesn't go backward during the downswing. Unfortunately, for those who move their heads a foot forward, they often try to move their head back during the downswing. Just ask @JetFan1983. He played a pro-am with an S&T instructor (high up, too) when his head was moving 8" down and forward and the guy never said a thing about it.

Yea... sad but true. I played that entire round without a driver because I simply could not keep that club in play. Leading up to that round, every time I would attempt a driver swing, it was either a massive hook or blocked OB. So, I took 3wood off every tee, including the par5s just so I could advance the ball reasonably predictably (we were playing from 7050 yards on a very wet south Florida course too and I am not by any means a bomber of the golf ball lol). The S&T pro never once offered anything during the round to help me or stop me from leaning significantly left with my head translating towards the target. It was after this round that I decided I never wanted a lesson from him again. At the time, I had no idea what was so wrong with my swing, but I did know that this guy "teaching" me was not going to be able to help me. 

I decided to stay in the S&T community though, and switched over to Laney. Maybe it was just him and not S&T itself? Anyway, her solution to my hook problem was to cup my lead wrist for as long as I possibly could throughout the swing to keep the face open. 

Anyway, Laney didn't work out either, so I finally decided that I should go to the S&T source once and for all. Mike Bennett would practice every now and then at my club's driving range, so I would sometimes find myself practicing while he was doing the same thing only twenty feet away from me. I asked him for a lesson, and the next day, we were working together just before sunset while a young, prospective S&T teacher from Seminole CC observed. I remember we focused mainly on my DTL issues (oof) while Bennett suggested to me that my arm sequencing was atrocious (which it was) but my body movement was "an A+." We spent the lesson attempting to change what my arms were doing. Looking back, I think he was trying to tell me I needed more pitch elbow from the transition into A5, but he could not explain that to me at all. It wasn't until months later that I realized what he was trying to say to me, but to be honest, I'm still not entirely sure haha.

That was the last S&T lesson I ever had. 

Eventually, I signed up for evolvr. @mvmac set me on the path towards no longer making that backswing with a six minute video he sent me. Of course, it's still a work in progress, but I think I made the bulk of the change fairly quickly. 

I mean I guess I deserve some of the blame for being clueless about the golf swing at the time, but the time I spent under the tutelage of S&T's top minds was a waste. 

And for the record, it pained me to write this post . I could keep rambling on, but I can hear the Academy Awards music telling me to get off the stage. I feel bad writing this because the S&T people in general were always very nice to me, but sadly, this was my experience. 

 

 

[nevets88]

2 hours ago, JetFan1983 said:

Yea... sad but true. I played that entire round without a driver because I simply could not keep that club in play. Leading up to that round, every time I would attempt a driver swing, it was either a massive hook or blocked OB. So, I took 3wood off every tee, including the par5s just so I could advance the ball reasonably predictably (we were playing from 7050 yards on a very wet south Florida course too and I am not by any means a bomber of the golf ball lol). The S&T pro never once offered anything during the round to help me or stop me from leaning significantly left with my head translating towards the target. It was after this round that I decided I never wanted a lesson from him again. At the time, I had no idea what was so wrong with my swing, but I did know that this guy "teaching" me was not going to be able to help me. 

I decided to stay in the S&T community though, and switched over to Laney. Maybe it was just him and not S&T itself? Anyway, her solution to my hook problem was to cup my lead wrist for as long as I possibly could throughout the swing to keep the face open. 

Anyway, Laney didn't work out either, so I finally decided that I should go to the S&T source once and for all. Mike Bennett would practice every now and then at my club's driving range, so I would sometimes find myself practicing while he was doing the same thing only twenty feet away from me. I asked him for a lesson, and the next day, we were working together just before sunset while a young, prospective S&T teacher from Seminole CC observed. I remember we focused mainly on my DTL issues (oof) while Bennett suggested to me that my arm sequencing was atrocious (which it was) but my body movement was "an A+." We spent the lesson attempting to change what my arms were doing. Looking back, I think he was trying to tell me I needed more pitch elbow from the transition into A5, but he could not explain that to me at all. It wasn't until months later that I realized what he was trying to say to me, but to be honest, I'm still not entirely sure haha.

That was the last S&T lesson I ever had. 

Eventually, I signed up for evolvr. @mvmac set me on the path towards no longer making that backswing with a six minute video he sent me. Of course, it's still a work in progress, but I think I made the bulk of the change fairly quickly. 

I mean I guess I deserve some of the blame for being clueless about the golf swing at the time, but the time I spent under the tutelage of S&T's top minds was a waste. 

And for the record, it pained me to write this post . I could keep rambling on, but I can hear the Academy Awards music telling me to get off the stage. I feel bad writing this because the S&T people in general were always very nice to me, but sadly, this was my experience. 

 

 

Yep. I had a similar experience. Still undoing that stuff I baked in. Wish I knew better.

[scopek]

23 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Yep. I had a similar experience. Still undoing that stuff I baked in. Wish I knew better.

 

On 1/10/2016 at 4:54 PM, JetFan1983 said:

Yea... sad but true. I played that entire round without a driver because I simply could not keep that club in play. Leading up to that round, every time I would attempt a driver swing, it was either a massive hook or blocked OB. So, I took 3wood off every tee, including the par5s just so I could advance the ball reasonably predictably (we were playing from 7050 yards on a very wet south Florida course too and I am not by any means a bomber of the golf ball lol). The S&T pro never once offered anything during the round to help me or stop me from leaning significantly left with my head translating towards the target. It was after this round that I decided I never wanted a lesson from him again. At the time, I had no idea what was so wrong with my swing, but I did know that this guy "teaching" me was not going to be able to help me. 

I decided to stay in the S&T community though, and switched over to Laney. Maybe it was just him and not S&T itself? Anyway, her solution to my hook problem was to cup my lead wrist for as long as I possibly could throughout the swing to keep the face open. 

Anyway, Laney didn't work out either, so I finally decided that I should go to the S&T source once and for all. Mike Bennett would practice every now and then at my club's driving range, so I would sometimes find myself practicing while he was doing the same thing only twenty feet away from me. I asked him for a lesson, and the next day, we were working together just before sunset while a young, prospective S&T teacher from Seminole CC observed. I remember we focused mainly on my DTL issues (oof) while Bennett suggested to me that my arm sequencing was atrocious (which it was) but my body movement was "an A+." We spent the lesson attempting to change what my arms were doing. Looking back, I think he was trying to tell me I needed more pitch elbow from the transition into A5, but he could not explain that to me at all. It wasn't until months later that I realized what he was trying to say to me, but to be honest, I'm still not entirely sure haha.

That was the last S&T lesson I ever had. 

Eventually, I signed up for evolvr. @mvmac set me on the path towards no longer making that backswing with a six minute video he sent me. Of course, it's still a work in progress, but I think I made the bulk of the change fairly quickly. 

I mean I guess I deserve some of the blame for being clueless about the golf swing at the time, but the time I spent under the tutelage of S&T's top minds was a waste. 

And for the record, it pained me to write this post . I could keep rambling on, but I can hear the Academy Awards music telling me to get off the stage. I feel bad writing this because the S&T people in general were always very nice to me, but sadly, this was my experience. 

 

 

 

23 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Yep. I had a similar experience. Still undoing that stuff I baked in. Wish I knew better.

You guys are ruining my image of S&T. It's one thing to have a bad experience with a random S&T instructor. It's another to have it with the man, Mike Bennett, himself. 

[nevets88]

3 minutes ago, scopek said:

You guys are ruining my image of S&T. It's one thing to have a bad experience with a random S&T instructor. It's another to have it with the man, Mike Bennett, himself. 

All due credit, the book they wrote, it was great. IME, I didn't get taught what they wrote.

[scopek]

4 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

All due credit, the book they wrote, it was great. IME, I didn't get taught what they wrote.

No need to give credit as far as I'm concerned. I've always been a big supporter of S&T. But I have, admittedly, struggled recently. Debating about going back to evolvr. Just had trouble with not having the instructor to ask real time questions so I went back to my original S&T instructor (who is now a 5SK instructor), but the 2 hours drive was prohibitive. But it's damn hard to find a good instructor close by. 

[mchepp]

1 hour ago, scopek said:

No need to give credit as far as I'm concerned. I've always been a big supporter of S&T. But I have, admittedly, struggled recently. Debating about going back to evolvr. Just had trouble with not having the instructor to ask real time questions so I went back to my original S&T instructor (who is now a 5SK instructor), but the 2 hours drive was prohibitive. But it's damn hard to find a good instructor close by. 

If your instructor is taught in the ways of 5SK I don't see that doing evolvr and going to see him are mutually exclusive. I easily see a way of you doing both. You can go 3-4 months getting lessons and work on evolvr and then once a quarter 2x a year go see the instructor if it is a long drive. This way you can back up what you are learning on evolvr with an in-person lesson. You can do this and tell the in-person instructor what your priority pieces is from your evolvr lessons, he can help put you in the correct positions and help. 

This is really the best of both worlds.

[MattM]

This Stack and Tilt move literally RUINED me for years.  I did that weight forward spin forward crap based on stuff that stack and tilt instructors would sell. 

It took me around a year and a bunch of Evolvr lessons AND MVMAC spotting my backward hip sway in a video to finally get me going on the right path again.  I honestly wish I had never read their book OR gotten lessons from guys in their system.  Live and Learn! 

I'm just happy I'm starting to put it back together!

[Phil McGleno]

5 hours ago, MattM said:

This Stack and Tilt move literally RUINED me for years.  I did that weight forward spin forward crap based on stuff that stack and tilt instructors would sell. 

It took me around a year and a bunch of Evolvr lessons AND MVMAC spotting my backward hip sway in a video to finally get me going on the right path again.  I honestly wish I had never read their book OR gotten lessons from guys in their system.  Live and Learn! 

I'm just happy I'm starting to put it back together!

If it has taken you years to start to get it back-You probably did not learn it all from SnT. You probably always swayed your hips and you are just blaming SnT.

I started this thread so I am not saying SnT is great.

[MattM]

I started working on  it from the get go. That's were I first learned parts of the swing from.  

If I had learned secondary axis tilt instead and had access to lessons based around the 5 simple keys then....I think I would be in much better shape at this point.  

Also it's like some folks said earlier I probably did always sway with my hips but it got worse and worse because I was trying to do some specific things related to snt.

[taxgolf]

I'll try to be as open as possible about this post. You do not have to agree with me, which is fine, it's just how I look at certain aspects.

 

I guess Mike and Andy do not know j@#$ sh$%^t about a golf swing. I would feel comfortable to argue that's not the case. I think they do. I had a different encounter then some of you. When they came to Holland and I was lucky enough to spend a day with them, it was probably the happiest golfing day of my life. But hey, I love spaghetti with truffel, and someone else might hate it. I was speachless at times, they explained a lot which made a lot of sense. 

 

But I guess everybody has some sort of agenda in life. 

 

I used to be a vivid advocate in defense of S&T. What turnes (or turned) me a bit of, is the fierce defence of the system. Which as a base, to me, is a far better way to start with golf than a lot of teaching stuff I see on the range in Holland. S&T has structure, a sound base. I get that 5SK differs at some points, but it has some or several aspects (dare I say it) with S&T. It might be cursing in the church, but that's the way I see it. Hopefully the day will come that some of the 5SK will visit Holland, or I could find the time to go to the USA. You might not agree with S&T, but from a S&T point of view, it's ok to disagree. That's always the result when you enter a discussion. So, the fiercefull defending is a bit to much for me.

 

But, I hope to have wide, open mind about golf in general, a swing system particular. S&T really helped my game, and I am pretty sure I do not apply it overall correctly. People with knowledge tell me that my short iron game pretty much cover the S&T system.  But with the big dog, or the 3w, I am not as consistent as with my short irons. I think it all boiles down to practise, practise and practise. I do not take that much lessons (which might be stupid), but given the time I have to play golf, I play, play and play. 

 

To round it up. There are probably a lot of people out there, that have encountered a bad experience with S&T. And vice versa. That same argument could be said about 5sk or any other system and/or method out there.

 

 

[boogielicious]

2 hours ago, taxgolf said:

I'll try to be as open as possible about this post. You do not have to agree with me, which is fine, it's just how I look at certain aspects.

 

I guess Mike and Andy do not know j@#$ sh$%^t about a golf swing. I would feel comfortable to argue that's not the case. I think they do. I had a different encounter then some of you. When they came to Holland and I was lucky enough to spend a day with them, it was probably the happiest golfing day of my life. But hey, I love spaghetti with truffel, and someone else might hate it. I was speachless at times, they explained a lot which made a lot of sense. 

 

But I guess everybody has some sort of agenda in life. 

 

I used to be a vivid advocate in defense of S&T. What turnes (or turned) me a bit of, is the fierce defence of the system. Which as a base, to me, is a far better way to start with golf than a lot of teaching stuff I see on the range in Holland. S&T has structure, a sound base. I get that 5SK differs at some points, but it has some or several aspects (dare I say it) with S&T. It might be cursing in the church, but that's the way I see it. Hopefully the day will come that some of the 5SK will visit Holland, or I could find the time to go to the USA. You might not agree with S&T, but from a S&T point of view, it's ok to disagree. That's always the result when you enter a discussion. So, the fiercefull defending is a bit to much for me.

 

But, I hope to have wide, open mind about golf in general, a swing system particular. S&T really helped my game, and I am pretty sure I do not apply it overall correctly. People with knowledge tell me that my short iron game pretty much cover the S&T system.  But with the big dog, or the 3w, I am not as consistent as with my short irons. I think it all boiles down to practise, practise and practise. I do not take that much lessons (which might be stupid), but given the time I have to play golf, I play, play and play. 

 

To round it up. There are probably a lot of people out there, that have encountered a bad experience with S&T. And vice versa. That same argument could be said about 5sk or any other system and/or method out there.

 

 

My experience was similar to yours. It helped me a lot in the beginning. But I think what is really hurting S&T is the "teachers" who go to extremes with silly stuff and M&A do not denounce them or even say that it is outside S&T. They've let the crazies take over their initial work and even deviated from that themselves.

Plus, they don't evolve their approach even with new information that is available. That is what is sad. In the beginning, they looked at pro swings analytically and developed a swing based on that. When new info became available, the shut their minds down and refused to evolve. It is very much like scientific theory progression. Someone makes a great discovery and develops a theory. But they when new science comes along to change the theory, the old guard scientist refuses to acknowledge it.

[mchepp]

8 hours ago, taxgolf said:

I guess Mike and Andy do not know j@#$ sh$%^t about a golf swing.

Most of your post is very good and I agree. This sentence is the main disagreement we have. While I am not crazy about how S&T has not evolved at all from its early days (in fact we could argue it has devolved) these two guys are pretty good students of the game. I don't think we should make it about them. 

[Golfingdad]

9 minutes ago, mchepp said:

Most of your post is very good and I agree. This sentence is the main disagreement we have. While I am not crazy about how S&T has not evolved at all from its early days (in fact we could argue it has devolved) these two guys are pretty good students of the game. I don't think we should make it about them. 

As sort of an outsider looking in here, I agree, except to say that there is one aspect that probably should be about them:

6 hours ago, boogielicious said:

But I think what is really hurting S&T is the "teachers" who go to extremes with silly stuff and M&A do not denounce them or even say that it is outside S&T. They've let the crazies take over their initial work and even deviated from that themselves.

It sounds to me like they have a little platform to be able to keep everything pointed in the right direction and for whatever reason are not doing so.  Unlike Spiderman , they are not being greatly responsible with the great power that they wield with some crowds.

I'm pretty sure that if 5SK teachers were to start going off the reservation, Erik or Dave would be very quick to either reign them back in or disown them from the system, such that they don't go dragging the 5SK name with them.