Muirfield Out of Open Rota, Denies Women Membership

[boogielicious]

9 hours ago, Gunther said:

Ah, you masked your contempt in your earlier post but couldn't here.  This does not affect you or anyone else on this forum.  There might be 5 or 10 women in the entire world that have the means and desire and pedigree to join this club.  Let's hold off on the PC histrionics until we hear from one of them.  Allow the men their sanctuary, I'm sure their wives are grateful for it.

Muirfield can do what they want, but this statement is not correct. Think of all the LPGA golfers and HoF members, and many, many very wealthy UK women, some of which could buy the club outright.

I have no issue with Men only or Women only clubs. The R&A however has to deal with all the public and can also do what they want to further the game of golf.

[pumaAttack]

17 hours ago, Chilli Dipper said:

This isn't a middle-class club, though: this is the most exclusive club in Britain. Out of the reasons why Muirfield would resist women members, financial constraints probably isn't one of them.

 

And people can't see why its a problem that the most exclusive club in Britain, who doesn't need to worry about money, won't allow women as members?

Because woman are always on the same pay scale as men and all....

Instead of progress and allowing woman into an exclusive wealthy club, lets keep it an old boys club...

10 hours ago, Gunther said:

Ah, you masked your contempt in your earlier post but couldn't here.  This does not affect you or anyone else on this forum.  There might be 5 or 10 women in the entire world that have the means and desire and pedigree to join this club.  Let's hold off on the PC histrionics until we hear from one of them.  Allow the men their sanctuary, I'm sure their wives are grateful for it.

 

Yikes, what a worldview you have.  Only men could possibly be that wealthy and socially renowned eh?  5 woman in the whole world, that is your best guess....

Talk about backwards.  This whole thread is very enlightening on some members here...

On 5/20/2016 at 6:35 AM, newtogolf said:

It's not discrimination, it's a private club, as such they get to decide who their members are.  There are plenty of women only clubs and businesses, do you believe they are discriminating?  

 

Ummm yes it is discrimination....  Gender discrimination., pretty simple bud.

Hey, you have male genital, you can join.  Hey! you don't, get out of here!   Sounds like a welcoming and non discriminatory club to me!

Just because its a private club doesn't mean its not discrimination...  It is the definition of discrimination actually.  Now whether you choose to accept that discrimination is up to you.

[Patch]

"Men Only" or "Women Only"  membership clubs are not a big deal as far as I am concerned. Both have their place. Neither sex should be offended by one or the other.

Now the important question is this. Does Muirfield have a Women's restroom?.....

[Chilli Dipper]

22 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm not sure that I'd hesitate to play at any men-only club, although I probably would hesitate to play at a "white-only" club.  I'm not sure that distinction is entirely fair on my part, but that's how it struck me.

I live in a part of the country where it's hard to tell how much of the remaining old-guard elitism still has an explicit racial bias. That's why I decided a long time ago that if I ever gain the money and status to join an old-money club, it would be my city's historically Jewish country club. (It doesn't hurt that it's closest to where I live.)

23 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

I have no issue with Men only or Women only clubs. The R&A however has to deal with all the public and can also do what they want to further the game of golf.

I think the days of the men-only club are numbered: not because of any effort to forcibly open its doors to women, but because I don't think there's much of an interest among guys of my generation to preserve the "old boys' club" culture. To people under 40, the idea of a gender-exclusive social club probably invites more connotations to the gay community than it does to the WASP upper crust.

There seems to be a consensus among the powers that be for "open" championships to be hosted by clubs that are either open to the public, or at least have open membership policies. The USGA, the PGA of America, and the PGA Tour have in recent years all dangled the carrot of multiple majors and the permanent residency of the BMW Championship in front of Butler National, near Chicago, in the hopes it would bite and change its membership policies. I don't think we're too far away from the day where the Muirfields and Butler Nationals of the world will have to change their ways on this issue for the sake of their own survival; we then wouldn't have to go to Medinah every few years.

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

Muirfield can do what they want, but this statement is not correct. Think of all the LPGA golfers and HoF members, and many, many very wealthy UK women, some of which could buy the club outright.

I have no issue with Men only or Women only clubs. The R&A however has to deal with all the public and can also do what they want to further the game of golf.

 

28 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

 

And people can't see why its a problem that the most exclusive club in Britain, who doesn't need to worry about money, won't allow women as members?

Because woman are always on the same pay scale as men and all....

Instead of progress and allowing woman into an exclusive wealthy club, lets keep it an old boys club...

 

Yikes, what a worldview you have.  Only men could possibly be that wealthy and socially renowned eh?  5 woman in the whole world, that is your best guess....

Talk about backwards.  This whole thread is very enlightening on some members here...

 

Ummm yes it is discrimination....  Gender discrimination., pretty simple bud.

Hey, you have male genital, you can join.  Hey! you don't, get out of here!   Sounds like a welcoming and non discriminatory club to me!

Just because its a private club doesn't mean its not discrimination...  It is the definition of discrimination actually.  Now whether you choose to accept that discrimination is up to you.

You guys missed my point.  I stand by the fact that there are only maybe 10 women in the world that have all 3 qualities:  means, desire, pedigree.  Oprah doesn't have the desire, Lady Gaga doesn't have the desire or pedigree.  Not every man who has the means or desire meets Muirfield's no doubt exacting standards.  They're not inviting people to join who don't add something to the club.

How will your life be improved by Muirfield inviting some 70-year old aristocratic dame or lady to join them?  Focus your outrage on something more meaningful and close to home. 

[pumaAttack]

11 minutes ago, Gunther said:

 

You guys missed my point.  I stand by the fact that there are only maybe 10 women in the world that have all 3 qualities:  means, desire, pedigree.  Oprah doesn't have the desire, Lady Gaga doesn't have the desire or pedigree.  Not every man who has the means or desire meets Muirfield's no doubt exacting standards.  They're not inviting people to join who don't add something to the club.

How will your life be improved by Muirfield inviting some 70-year old aristocratic dame or lady to join them?  Focus your outrage on something more meaningful and close to home. 

My life is not affected by this... But that doesn't mean I can't care about progress.  

The most upsetting thing about this story is the reactions from people here. 

[Gunther]

1 minute ago, pumaAttack said:

The most upsetting thing about this story is the reactions from people here. 

Something we can finally agree on my friend.  Upsetting isn't the word I'd use, maybe startling?

[Chilli Dipper]

16 minutes ago, Gunther said:

 

You guys missed my point.  I stand by the fact that there are only maybe 10 women in the world that have all 3 qualities:  means, desire, pedigree.  Oprah doesn't have the desire, Lady Gaga doesn't have the desire or pedigree.  Not every man who has the means or desire meets Muirfield's no doubt exacting standards.  They're not inviting people to join who don't add something to the club.

How will your life be improved by Muirfield inviting some 70-year old aristocratic dame or lady to join them?  Focus your outrage on something more meaningful and close to home. 

First of all, as I mentioned in my previous post, the change is likely to come not from women banging at the gate, but from younger men who don't care about "preserving tradition."

Secondly, every club should have a cool old lady. That should be written into the charter.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Chilli Dipper said:

Secondly, every club should have a cool old lady.

And at least one or two old codgers who are no longer able to play much golf, but sit in the bar and tell old stories.  That's my life's ambition.  After maybe 20 or 30 more years of playing.

[SavvySwede]

55 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

 

And people can't see why its a problem that the most exclusive club in Britain, who doesn't need to worry about money, won't allow women as members?

Because woman are always on the same pay scale as men and all....

Instead of progress and allowing woman into an exclusive wealthy club, lets keep it an old boys club...

 

Yikes, what a worldview you have.  Only men could possibly be that wealthy and socially renowned eh?  5 woman in the whole world, that is your best guess....

Talk about backwards.  This whole thread is very enlightening on some members here...

 

Ummm yes it is discrimination....  Gender discrimination., pretty simple bud.

Hey, you have male genital, you can join.  Hey! you don't, get out of here!   Sounds like a welcoming and non discriminatory club to me!

Just because its a private club doesn't mean its not discrimination...  It is the definition of discrimination actually.  Now whether you choose to accept that discrimination is up to you.

 

It isn't a business though. Just because a regular Joe builds a "man cave" in his basement for himself and his buddies doesn't mean he hates his wife or women in general. This is just a larger scale version of that for rich dudes.

[DaveP043]

I think the crux of the matter is this: 

on the 5 days of the week that Visitors can't make tee times, they want to be able to take a leak wherever on the course they want.  

[David in FL]

8 hours ago, MacDutch said:

I would play a mens only golfcourse for sure. Not sure if I did. Did I @David in FL ?

Hell, I even would play a ladies only golfcourse if they let me 

Nope, they're all open to both genders.

Of course the ladies would let you play, you just need to bring your gay nine!  

[Chilli Dipper]

31 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think the crux of the matter is this: 

on the 5 days of the week that Visitors can't make tee times, they want to be able to take a leak wherever on the course they want.  

I've been to enough beer festivals and 5K's to know that the presence of women isn't going to stop those types from doing their business wherever there's a vacant piece of shrubbery.

34 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

 

It isn't a business though. Just because a regular Joe builds a "man cave" in his basement for himself and his buddies doesn't mean he hates his wife or women in general. This is just a larger scale version of that for rich dudes.

Plus, Joe most likely doesn't have a rule that his wife is banned from ever hanging out in his man cave. She can come down and be one of the guys whenever she wants.

[krupa]

43 minutes ago, Gunther said:

 

You guys missed my point.  I stand by the fact that there are only maybe 10 women in the world that have all 3 qualities:  means, desire, pedigree.  Oprah doesn't have the desire, Lady Gaga doesn't have the desire or pedigree.  Not every man who has the means or desire meets Muirfield's no doubt exacting standards.  They're not inviting people to join who don't add something to the club.

How will your life be improved by Muirfield inviting some 70-year old aristocratic dame or lady to join them?  Focus your outrage on something more meaningful and close to home. 

Part of the reason for this, though, is that historically men have denied women access to two of those three things.  And we continue that trend today with pay imbalance and general sexist stereotypes.  For example, young girls are still discouraged from studying STEM subjects.  

[DaveP043]

10 minutes ago, Chilli Dipper said:

I've been to enough beer festivals and 5K's to know that the presence of women isn't going to stop those types from doing their business wherever there's a vacant piece of shrubbery.

Perhaps, but if its Margaret Thatcher on the next fairway, and she has the same membership status as you have, you might want to think twice about it.

[Chilli Dipper]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Perhaps, but if its Margaret Thatcher on the next fairway, and she has the same membership status as you have, you might want to think twice about it.

Thatcher would have laughed, and then told a story of when the Australian prime minister did the same thing in front of her at an economic summit.

[pumaAttack]

20 minutes ago, krupa said:

Part of the reason for this, though, is that historically men have denied women access to two of those three things.  And we continue that trend today with pay imbalance and general sexist stereotypes.  For example, young girls are still discouraged from studying STEM subjects.  

Bingo

Woman don't have the same access as men to these elite clubs.  So we have two choices:. Continue the discrimination or move towards progress and give woman equal access to the luxuries and advantages men have had for centuries. 

[xcott]

I'm fine with Muirfield as a private club choosing to be a men's club. I don't really have a problem with women at a golf club, but they can choose to admit who they want. I'm also fine with the Open responding by getting Muirfield off the list. Free choices for both organizations.