What Would a PGA Tour Player Shoot at Your Home Course?

[dove694]

I read an article not long ago about this topic. Steve Marino played a local muni in the Washington DC area a few years ago and shot an "ugly" 68 because he struggled to adapt to the slow greens. My question is what do you think an "average" Tour player would shoot at your course? I'm not talking Jason Day or Jordan Spieth. I mean a guy like Kevin Stadler, Darren Stiles, Cameron Beckman, Alex Prugh, Steven Bowditch, Andres Gonzales, etc. who has had some good finishes (even the odd win) but isn't considered a "star" by any stretch.

Hypothetically and for the sake of the thread: they would play the back tees (obviously) but the course wouldn't be set up any differently than it would be for day-to-day play (ie. no crazy "Ironman" pin positions, rough isn't grown out any differently, greens aren't sped up...), weather wouldn't be a factor and it would be (in all likelihood) on their first time playing the course.  

I heard that Stephen Ames came and played a course in my hometown (Shadow Mountain, Cranbrook BC) and shot 73 (+1) and commented about how challenging he thought the course was. It is a difficult track in terms of public courses, but I was still surprised to hear he actually shot over par. I feel as if a touring professional was to play my home club (Cranbrook Golf Club, 6790 yards, 71.7/131) they would probably shoot in the vicinity of 62. That score is the current course record and was shot by a friend of mine who played college golf at Washington State and has won the club championship a handful of times. But he has played it hundreds of times and knows the course inside and out so I am not comparing a tour pro to a very good local player by any means. It is a traditional country club style course - tree-lined fairways, relatively flat, smallish greens, few hazards, not much OB, good course conditions, rough isn't really a factor. I figure they would have an even mix of pars and birdies and possibly an eagle or two (the par 5's are 530, 559, 496 and 524 yards, and there is a 286 yard straight-away par 4 along with a few holes in the 360-380 yard range that they might drive or get close to) and they might have a bogey thrown in there. On an exceptional day, they would probably break 60 and on a poor day they might shoot something like 66 or 67. 

Looking forward to hearing what you think!

[natureboy]

To some degree I would think it depends on which level of tour pro too. I've seen ranges of HCPs from +3.5 up to +7.5. Usually the very high number reflects a top 30 type pro posting scores on a very familiar home course, and the lower number reflecting HCP based on tournament scores. The high +HCP number generated on a familiar home track might be closer to a valid comparison to regular amateur HCPs rather than going by their tournament scores on less intimately familiar tracks.

My local muni has a very low rating so I'd expect the average pro to regularly shoot in the vicinity of 63-64. But I wonder if 59's and 58's would be expected to be likely on occasion with such a low average score? It seems like the 50's are pretty rare to visit even for pro-level talent, otherwise most pros would have a round like that in their development, right? So maybe 60 is a bit of a lower limit even for relatively easy tracks with a rating between 65 and 72?

Edited May 22, 2016 by natureboy

[Shindig]

My home course used to host the L.A. Open, but the course was set up differently then.  Either way, it's par-71, but the three par-5s are short by TOUR standards;  Zach Johnson and Corey Pavin would have no trouble reaching them in two.  Then again, one year in that event, Arnold Palmer took a 12 on the par-5 18th hole. 

[awmgolfer]

My home course is pretty short, even from the blue it is just over 6,000 yards. I believe the first time around a pro would probably shoot right around par but, mainly due to the greens, being slow and a bit bumpy. Give them a couple of rounds I believe the course record of -5 would be broken. 

[dove694]

8 hours ago, awmgolfer said:

My home course is pretty short, even from the blue it is just over 6,000 yards. I believe the first time around a pro would probably shoot right around par but, mainly due to the greens, being slow and a bit bumpy. Give them a couple of rounds I believe the course record of -5 would be broken. 

Would have to be some kind of crazy difficult course for a tour pro to shoot even par when it's playing only 6000 yards!

14 hours ago, natureboy said:

But I wonder if 59's and 58's would be expected to be likely on occasion with such a low average score? It seems like the 50's are pretty rare to visit even for pro-level talent, otherwise most pros would have a round like that in their development, right?

Shooting a 64 or 65 (which most of these guys will do at least once in a while) on a course with Tour difficulty is probably the equivalent of shooting 57 (maybe lower) on a course with a rating of 68.0. It's all perspective.

And a pretty good number of those guys would have shot in the 50's at some point in their lives by now, even if it was in a casual round on an local course.

[Patch]

I just went with the lowest course rating which is 68.7. Obviously at 6600 yards, on a good day, I think there could be really low 60s shot by a top 100 pro. Current course record is 64 which is a few decades old. 

Smallish greens, quality rough/hazard placements, challenging greens, and lots of trees would make it a decent test for the pro ranks looking for a low 60 score. 

[saevel25]

I voted 60-65. If you have any course that is over 7000 yards. A golfer can only go so low because their score is more dependant on hot putting over extremely closer proximity. I don't see a PGA Tour player being substantially closer to the pin averaging short irons versus mid irons.

 

[Rainmaker]

I'll go based on the course I'm thinking of joining . .which is actually much tougher than the courses I normally play.  I think a tour player would absolutely destroy it, lol.  Somebody who is more accurate than long - like a Jim Furyk or somebody - would probably shoot low 60's every time.  

I would just put this out there - you never know who is reading, lol.  If any tour players would like to try this - I will totally get it set up.  I'll play you straight up for 20 bucks a hole, too, just to sweeten it.     

[Shindig]

Something to think about:  the guys barely maintaining their TOUR cards are estimated at something like a +4.5 handicap, and that's using the "from the tips" CR/SR of the courses they play, not the way it's set up for the event (pro events rarely have the setup's CR/SR measured, with the exception of the U.S. Open). 

[dove694]

I also forgot to add that two tour players HAVE played my course. I didn't even think of this when I was creating the thread but it dawned on me this morning.

I played in the BC Junior (the equivalent of my junior State Championship) at my home course in 2006 and Nick Taylor and Adam Hadwin played in it. Taylor has won on Tour and Hadwin has had a handful of top 10 finishes I believe.

 

I am aware they weren't at the skill level that they are now back then (we were 18 at the time) but it still gives a little insight.

Taylor won the tournament with an -11 total (68-71-68-70) and Hadwin finished 9th with a -5 total (72-70-72-69). He tied with Web.com Tour player Eugene Wong who was also -5. Su Dong who occasionally plays the European Tour was also in the field, and I can recall he shot 65 one round and then 80 in another. 

[Jeremie Boop]

There are no courses I play regularly that have enough length to cause any tour player trouble. They'd likely rarely use their driver and probably would be hitting low irons/wedges for almost every approach shot. I don't see any reason they'd have trouble shooting 60-65, but any better than that they'd have to be hitting on all cylinders by not missing any putts and/or sticking all their approaches in super tight.

[NJpatbee]

Just a guess but I would expect a decent Tour Pro to shoot a 62-64 on my home course. 

[David in FL]

Chris DiMarco holds the course record at my home course.  63.  Allegedly the first time he ever played it.  7,000 yds, 73.5/132.

[Hardspoon]

I voted for low 60's.

There's a point of diminishing returns, even for PGA tour professionals, for a course of reasonable length (over 6,500 yards or so).  I think the likelihood of shooting 59 would not be much greater than it is on the easier PGA Tour courses; ie, very unlikely.

 

 

[DrvFrShow]

The average men's tour player - 65. The top echelon? about a 63.

LPGA pros from the blues - 69 to 70; Top echelon group? in the mid 60s easily.

It's a fun course. Black tees are 7100 yds. but can go to 7300 from the tippy tips. Blues 6600, but the fairways are fair and the greens aren't tricky.

[14ledo81]

My course is 6600 from the back. The only par 5 that could possibly pose a little challenge is uphill and 560. The other 3 would be easily reachable. That's 3 under with just those holes. 

I foresee low 60's.

[Chilli Dipper]

My "home" course (the one I'll register my handicap when I get around to it, at least) measures 6522 yards from the tips, has a 71.6 course rating, and a slope rating of 140. If we suppose that the average tour pro would have a handicap somewhere in the +5 range, that would give him a +6 handicap for this course. Rounding up, that means he would shoot his handicap with a 66. The adage is that a player can expect to match or beat his handicap only 20-25 percent of the time, so that would put his average score in the 67-68 range; a great round would be in the 62-64 range. Your mileage may vary, of course.

[dave s]

The length tour pros have, my home course (blue tees) would be a 'pitch-and-putt' course for these guys.  #1 is a short par-5 that a tour pro could hit hybrid and 7-iron into.  Hole 2 could likely be driven (dogleg left) with a 3-wood by any PGA tour pro.  #3 is an uphill short par 3 that measures right about 305.  3-wood, probably?

You get the picture.  It's the length (blue tees at just under 6200) that would have any PGA tour pro reaching all par-5s in two, driving several of the par 4 holes (or greenside at worst) and taking target practice on the par-3s.  Holes 16, 17 and 18 would keep them from breaking 60, though!

dave