DQ or Not?

[iacas]

We had a two-day tournament awhile back. Sunday/Monday rounds. The best 4 out of 5 scores count.

Quote

Coaches,

FYI - there was a wrong scorecard issue brought to my attention first thing Tuesday morning by Coach Doe from Somewhere University. One of his players alerted him to the error that morning at 7:30am and John called me.

Unfortunately, the error will result in a DQ. Our SID is making the corrections with Golfstat and will be sending the corrected results to your SIDs later today.

Editorial comment...kudos to That Golfer and Coach Steve for handling a tough situation. He and I talked about this being a "teachable moment" for all our players.

Best,

Peter

Should the team have been DQed? He shot the lowest score on his team, and they finished T7th. The fifth place player shot 13 strokes higher in the second round.

Consider 34-1b (iii) and 33/8.

 

[Groucho Valentine]

Im assuming those are rules of golf.. rule 33 and 34 are discovery statutes for trials 

What did the kid do? 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Im assuming those are rules of golf.. rule 33 and 34 are discovery statutes for trials 

This is the Rules of Golf forum, so… yeah.

3 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

What did the kid do? 

Signed an incorrect scorecard. It's in the quoted email.

[David in FL]

26 minutes ago, iacas said:

We had a two-day tournament awhile back. Sunday/Monday rounds. The best 4 out of 5 scores count.

Should the team have been DQed? He shot the lowest score on his team, and they finished T7th. The fifth place player shot 13 strokes higher in the second round.

Consider 34-1b (iii) and 33/8.

 

I'm not understanding the exact situation.  The low man signed for an incorrect lower score (not because of a failure to include penalty strokes) and the entire team was DQ'd?  

Shouldn't the individual be DQ'd and the team score be calculated using the scores for the remaing team members?  I can't think of, or find, any justification to DQ the entire team in the scenario as I'm understanding it.

[Groucho Valentine]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

This is the Rules of Golf forum, so… yeah.

Signed an incorrect scorecard. It's in the quoted email.

If the score was ohe 4 scores used to determine the team score,  then i guess the team should have been DQ'd

But this scorecard thing needs to go away anyway, even on amateur levels. Its not 1950 anymore. Make the adjustment and move on. 

[14ledo81]

7 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I'm not understanding the exact situation.  The low man signed for an incorrect lower score (not because of a failure to include penalty strokes) and the entire team was DQ'd?  

Shouldn't the individual be DQ'd and the team score be calculated using the scores for the remaing team members?  I can't think of, or find, any justification to DQ the entire team in the scenario as I'm understanding it.

Same with me.

[iacas]

46 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I'm not understanding the exact situation.  The low man signed for an incorrect lower score (not because of a failure to include penalty strokes) and the entire team was DQ'd?

Pretty much.

44 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

But this scorecard thing needs to go away anyway, even on amateur levels. Its not 1950 anymore. Make the adjustment and move on. 

That's got nothing to do with this.

There was no other way to keep score. They had to use scorecards.

[Braivo]

57 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Shouldn't the individual be DQ'd and the team score be calculated using the scores for the remaing team members?  I can't think of, or find, any justification to DQ the entire team in the scenario as I'm understanding it.

1

I agree with this. Why does the whole team get DQ? 

[CarlSpackler]

I voted no.

[Club Rat]

I do not know the ruling, but I always like making a logical comment.

It is indicated "a wrong scorecard was turned in" Wouldn't only that one players score be thrown out?

I do not see why he would be DQ'ed for the second day of play?

Is the format "The best 4 out of 5 scores count." for each day, and is there five players on each team?

[Hardspoon]

I wasn't familiar with these rules (so there may be an error in my interpretation below), but after reading them a bit, I'm on the fence.

While Decision 33/8 addresses a different situation, it seems to consider each round (by each player) a separate entity...maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'd think that thinking is extended to the situation you describe.

However, Rule 33b seems to indicate that the only change in result that can occur after a competition is closed is disqualification.  If you allow a different score to count, you're changing the results, without DQ'ing the team (only the player).  That seems counter to the rule.

In my opinion, since the different result would have no affect on the actual play, and because the change in result can only help other teams, I'd probably lean towards only DQ'ing that player...but I can see it both ways.

[Golfingdad]

6 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

I wasn't familiar with these rules (so there may be an error in my interpretation below), but after reading them a bit, I'm on the fence.

While Decision 33/8 addresses a different situation, it seems to consider each round (by each player) a separate entity...maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'd think that thinking is extended to the situation you describe.

However, Rule 33b seems to indicate that the only change in result that can occur after a competition is closed is disqualification.  If you allow a different score to count, you're changing the results, without DQ'ing the team (only the player).  That seems counter to the rule.

In my opinion, since the different result would have no affect on the actual play, and because the change in result can only help other teams, I'd probably lean towards only DQ'ing that player...but I can see it both ways.

This seems logical to me.  DQ'ing the one player results in a worse score from the fifth teammate replacing his, thus only helping all other teams.  It sort of equates to a situation where a player signs for a higher number than what he actually shot.  He doesn't get DQ'd, he's just stuck with that higher number, right?

[Rulesman]

None of the decisions (including cross referenced ones) suggest that the team score is affected other than that player's score for that round does not count. No where is it suggested that the next best score cannot be counted.

33/8 certainly implies that other team member's score will count.

 

[Martyn W]

Using the principle cited in 31-8, there is no way other team-members have gained any advantage, nor have opposing teams been disadvantaged. Even a partner is not DQ let alone other team members!

[Big C]

Take scores 2-5 and re-calculate the totals. Do not DQ the team. 

Rule 34-1 references a stroke play competition and provides an outline for when a competitor can be DQ'ed after a competition has closed. But it only refers to an individual competitor being DQ'ed. There is never any reference to a team event.

Decision 33-8 implies that the committee may use the other 4 scores to calculate the results in the event of an individual DQ. Given this, and given the fact that there are really no unintended consequences to using scores 2-5, I think it's a no brainer that the committee do this. Even if Competitor 1 was found to be in serious breach, there is no logical path forward to presume that DQ's the entire team. 

[TourSpoon]

There are plenty of examples of individual DQs in NCAA events that resulted in the individual being DQed and not the team so why should it happen here? 

Edited September 14, 2016 by TourSpoon

[iacas]

1 minute ago, TourSpoon said:

There are plenty of examples of individual DQs in NCAA events that resulted in the individual being DQed and not the team so why did it happen in this example? 

Honestly? I don't know.

But if I were to guess? Because the guys running this didn't really consult the Rules of Golf before they decided.

The Coach may have offered to sort of "fall on their sword" so to speak. It was just a T7 finish so who cares… maybe they were thinking?

[bkuehn1952]

I have no information other than my opinion.

If the incorrect scorecard had been discovered before the close of competition, removing one individual and substituting the 5th makes sense.  The competition, however, was closed.  Each team had chosen their 4 scores to count.  Everyone was on their way home.  Only then was the fudged or incorrect scorecard revealed.

It doesn't seem right to me to allow the team that had the error to re-configure their scores after the close, in a sense, to erase the error.  Certainly having one's careless or deceitful actions negatively impact the entire team will have a greater impact than just being substituted out of the lineup retroactively.

As to the Rules, the Committee is given fairly broad latitude in applying or not applying a DQ penalty.