Asking For Refund When Course In Poor Condition?

[Braivo]

A few weeks ago my girlfriend and I decided last minute to head out and play nine holes at the local muni. 

We were shocked to find that they had raised their rates significantly since the last time we had played, the fees were now in line with higher end courses in the area. We decided to go ahead and play anyway, but recognized that this course was now far less of a value. 

Upon reaching the first green we discovered it was completely torched. Brown, patches of dirt, and weeds everywhere. Very disappointing. We thought it was just a fluke and continued on. We found that every green was like that. Additionally, the tee boxes were overgrown with weeds and the rough was so long we lost a ball on nearly every hole. 

We weren't happy, but we pressed on, until ...

we approached the seventh green only to find a crew member spraying the green with some liquid solution. We approached him to ask what he was spraying on the greens, he said it was a fertilizer/pesticide mixture. He had no idea if it was toxic or if we should be playing golf on it immediately after he sprayed it. 

We weren't about to hit onto and putt on a still wet green covered in fertilizer and pesticides. We picked up our balls and returned to the clubhouse where they gave us a raincheck after we voiced our complaints. They said it was a dry summer so the course was in rough shape (this didn't explain the uncut rough, but I will give some leeway here). Upon asking about the fertilizer appliation occuring during peak hours on a Sunday, they had to explanation. They just shook their heads. 

Was I right to request a refund in this situation? Is that normal to apply fertilizer / pesticide during peak playing hours? Has anyone else ever requested a refund upon finding a course in very poor condition? 

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Was I right to request a refund in this situation? Is that normal to apply fertilizer / pesticide during peak playing hours? Has anyone else ever requested a refund upon finding a course in very poor condition? 

You always have a right to ask for a refund. The course doesn't have to give it to you. I don't see a rain check as a refund. 

I never requested a refund for poor course condition. Most courses are priced for what they with regards to condition. 

I've had courses give me discounts before if the course was in poor shape. In one case a free play because they aerated the greens right before an outing we had. The outing was scheduled before the course had their aerated scheduled. 

As for pesticides, I have no clue. 

[CarlSpackler]

I have never requested a refund, but I certainly wouldn't return if I wasn't happy. I will fill out a course review to warn others or give kudos to a course that is doing a good job.

[RussUK]

I know the course where i play gives refunds for pre booked rounds (you have to pay one green fee) if the conditions are bad such as fog, snow or torrential rain but not for some of the conditions in the OP.

Spraying fertilzer during peak times (was it a peak time) is a little odd. I can understand them doing it towward the end onf the day or first thing and would have thought whatever they used would either be non toxic or have such a low toxicity that it would be ok. I think unless a person is into licking golf balls clean then it would have been pretty safe.

[mcanadiens]

Most of the time, the online reviews will tell you what you need to know. A course can have a bad run or maybe miss a cutting, but the consistent goat tracks are named and shamed on golfadvisor.com and the like.

The closest I came was the time @Jeremie Boop and I played Moss Creek (Clayton, OH), . The reviews had been a bit mixed up to that point and I wasn't totally unaware. That said, it was pretty disappointing. The greens were a shambles, the rough hadn't been cut in a week and the bunkers full of weeds. I was hitting the ball straight off the tee so I blew off the putting altogether just to get to the next tee box.

Never went there again, but it sounds like its still going downhill. Damn shame to because the layout of that place is pretty decent.

 

 

[Jeremie Boop]

I can't say I've ever had a similar experience. I've played courses that were very cheap and as soon as you step on the tee you know why, but that's sort of what you get for a cheap price. I have played more expensive courses that I didn't feel were worth the price but they weren't so bad that I felt I deserved a refund. However, if I were to encounter a situation like yours I'm not sure how I would react. I may have asked how many greens had been sprayed and skipped any that were sprayed. Last thing I would want is a rain check though, I would not have any desire to return to a course in such poor shape. It's unfortunate that you had such a bad experience. Most times I experience the opposite, where the price is low but I'm pleasantly surprised by how good the shape of the course is.

2 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Most of the time, the online reviews will tell you what you need to know. A course can have a bad run or maybe miss a cutting, but the consistent goat tracks are named and shamed on golfadvisor.com and the like.

The closest I came was the time @Jeremie Boop and I played Moss Creek (Clayton, OH), . The reviews had been a bit mixed up to that point and I wasn't totally unaware. That said, it was pretty disappointing. The greens were a shambles, the rough hadn't been cut in a week and the bunkers full of weeds. I was hitting the ball straight off the tee so I blew off the putting altogether just to get to the next tee box.

Never went there again, but it sounds like its still going downhill. Damn shame to because the layout of that place is pretty decent.

 

 

I remember that course, didn't we get the round for pretty cheap through that group golf discount site? I agree, the course was in rough shape but I thought the layout and such was actually really cool. It was a Chi Chi Rodriguez design if I remember correctly. I had hoped they were able to get in back into shape. Would have been a great course to play when it was being maintained well.

 

[mcanadiens]

7 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I remember that course, didn't we get the round for pretty cheap through that group golf discount site? I agree, the course was in rough shape but I thought the layout and such was actually really cool. It was a Chi Chi Rodriguez design if I remember correctly. I had hoped they were able to get in back into shape. Would have been a great course to play when it was being maintained well.

 

Sadly it doesn't seem so. A review two days ago says "Charging people to play this course is stealing their money".

It is for sale apparently. You and your big money Lima friends could probably snap it up and whip it into shape.

[CarlSpackler]

4 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Most of the time, the online reviews will tell you what you need to know. A course can have a bad run or maybe miss a cutting, but the consistent goat tracks are named and shamed on golfadvisor.com and the like.

The closest I came was the time @Jeremie Boop and I played Moss Creek (Clayton, OH), . The reviews had been a bit mixed up to that point and I wasn't totally unaware. That said, it was pretty disappointing. The greens were a shambles, the rough hadn't been cut in a week and the bunkers full of weeds. I was hitting the ball straight off the tee so I blew off the putting altogether just to get to the next tee box.

Never went there again, but it sounds like its still going downhill. Damn shame to because the layout of that place is pretty decent.

Moss used to be nice. It's a Chi Chi Rodriguez signature course (or was). It has a pro grade layout, but they ran out of money and couldn't build the clubhouse and ended up operating out of a trailer. It was maintained nicely for many years, but the last 5-6 years have taken it's toll. Another problem is that they couldn't sell, and you aren't allowed to transport, alcohol on a majority of the back 9. It was just odd. Now that Meadowbrook CC up the street is public under the ownership of the City of Clayton, I imagine Moss will turn into a weed field like many other courses up there.

[phillyk]

It is definitely not normal to spray during peak times.  Most greens keepers will spray in early morning and the course is suppose to let golfers know and not let people out until the liquid has subsided into the greens a bit.  The general time is don't let people play until 30min after they spray.  Still don't lick your fingers or anything on those days.  You could get sick (depends if they spray herbicide or fungicides), but you won't die or melt or anything.

Most courses create their rates based on competition with other courses, but it can definitely be influenced by course conditions. Some may increase rates so that they can try to put more into improving the course.  Or as @saevel25 said, after aeration they may give 50% off rates or something for the 2 weeks or so that it takes to be playable.

Most courses will give rain checks for a situation that shouldn't be encountered for a normal round.  Getting a refund is usually out of the question at most places.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, Braivo said:

A few weeks ago my girlfriend and I decided last minute to head out and play nine holes at the local muni. 

We were shocked to find that they had raised their rates significantly since the last time we had played, the fees were now in line with higher end courses in the area. We decided to go ahead and play anyway, but recognized that this course was now far less of a value. 

Upon reaching the first green we discovered it was completely torched. Brown, patches of dirt, and weeds everywhere. Very disappointing. We thought it was just a fluke and continued on. We found that every green was like that. Additionally, the tee boxes were overgrown with weeds and the rough was so long we lost a ball on nearly every hole. 

We weren't happy, but we pressed on, until ...

we approached the seventh green only to find a crew member spraying the green with some liquid solution. We approached him to ask what he was spraying on the greens, he said it was a fertilizer/pesticide mixture. He had no idea if it was toxic or if we should be playing golf on it immediately after he sprayed it. 

We weren't about to hit onto and putt on a still wet green covered in fertilizer and pesticides. We picked up our balls and returned to the clubhouse where they gave us a raincheck after we voiced our complaints. They said it was a dry summer so the course was in rough shape (this didn't explain the uncut rough, but I will give some leeway here). Upon asking about the fertilizer appliation occuring during peak hours on a Sunday, they had to explanation. They just shook their heads. 

Was I right to request a refund in this situation? Is that normal to apply fertilizer / pesticide during peak playing hours? Has anyone else ever requested a refund upon finding a course in very poor condition? 

I've never done it ... but I think you were well within your rights to do exactly as you did.

[Jeremie Boop]

2 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Sadly it doesn't seem so. A review two days ago says "Charging people to play this course is stealing their money".

It is for sale apparently. You and your big money Lima friends could probably snap it up and whip it into shape.

I know that's a joke, but I actually know the daughter of the owner of the course you came up and played. They were looking at buying one of the local courses that closed but the price was way too high to justify the work required to get it back ready to be played again. If Moss Creek was closer I would probably mention it to her, but I doubt they are looking to buy something that is so far away. Plus they ended up buying a different course so I would imagine they wouldn't have the ability to buy it even if they wanted to. 

2 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

Moss used to be nice. It's a Chi Chi Rodriguez signature course (or was). It has a pro grade layout, but they ran out of money and couldn't build the clubhouse and ended up operating out of a trailer. It was maintained nicely for many years, but the last 5-6 years have taken it's toll. Another problem is that they couldn't sell, and you aren't allowed to transport, alcohol on a majority of the back 9. It was just odd. Now that Meadowbrook CC up the street is public under the ownership of the City of Clayton, I imagine Moss will turn into a weed field like many other courses up there.

It's too bad really, some of the nicer courses tend to be the ones that go to pot because it costs more to maintain them. Having trouble with with having alcohol on the course is pretty much always going to be a killer for a course too.

I may be a rare type of golfer in that I'd rather play a course that is tougher and more interesting that one that is easy and boring. Even if that means my score isn't as good. 

That said, and on topic, even as interesting as the layout was I had no desire to go back unless they were able to get it back in shape, and even in as bad a shape as it was it never crossed my mind to consider a refund. Though I was a little miffed that range balls were supposed to be included in the price but they didn't provide them.

[Braivo]

9 minutes ago, phillyk said:

It is definitely not normal to spray during peak times.  Most greens keepers will spray in early morning and the course is suppose to let golfers know and not let people out until the liquid has subsided into the greens a bit.  The general time is don't let people play until 30min after they spray.  Still don't lick your fingers or anything on those days.  You could get sick (depends if they spray herbicide or fungicides), but you won't die or melt or anything.

Most courses create their rates based on competition with other courses, but it can definitely be influenced by course conditions. Some may increase rates so that they can try to put more into improving the course.  Or as @saevel25 said, after aeration they may give 50% off rates or something for the 2 weeks or so that it takes to be playable.

Most courses will give rain checks for a situation that shouldn't be encountered for a normal round.  Getting a refund is usually out of the question at most places.

If they had stated up front that the course was in poor condition and they were going to offer discounted rates I would have had a completely different view of the experience. This isn't normally a dog track type course, it is usually in good condition, I've played it since I was a kid. The inflated price coupled with the poor condition led to significant letdown. 

[mcanadiens]

9 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

Plus they ended up buying a different course so I would imagine they wouldn't have the ability to buy it even if they wanted to. 

What did they buy?

[CarlSpackler]

2 minutes ago, Braivo said:

If they had stated up front that the course was in poor condition and they were going to offer discounted rates I would have had a completely different view of the experience. This isn't normally a dog track type course, it is usually in good condition, I've played it since I was a kid. The inflated price coupled with the poor condition led to significant letdown. 

It seems weird that they would increase price for decreased condition, but then again, they might be hurting financially. It is very common these days. The odd thing is that increasing the price will tend to decrease revenue. Perhaps they've been spending too much time around the chemicals they've been spraying on the greens. 

[Jeremie Boop]

4 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

What did they buy?

I can't remember off the top of my head, I had never heard of the course before it was mentioned. I want to say they bought Hillcrest up in Findlay.

[Patch]

1 hour ago, Braivo said:

A few weeks ago my girlfriend and I decided last minute to head out and play nine holes at the local muni. 

We were shocked to find that they had raised their rates significantly since the last time we had played, the fees were now in line with higher end courses in the area. We decided to go ahead and play anyway, but recognized that this course was now far less of a value. 

Upon reaching the first green we discovered it was completely torched. Brown, patches of dirt, and weeds everywhere. Very disappointing. We thought it was just a fluke and continued on. We found that every green was like that. Additionally, the tee boxes were overgrown with weeds and the rough was so long we lost a ball on nearly every hole. 

We weren't happy, but we pressed on, until ...

we approached the seventh green only to find a crew member spraying the green with some liquid solution. We approached him to ask what he was spraying on the greens, he said it was a fertilizer/pesticide mixture. He had no idea if it was toxic or if we should be playing golf on it immediately after he sprayed it. 

We weren't about to hit onto and putt on a still wet green covered in fertilizer and pesticides. We picked up our balls and returned to the clubhouse where they gave us a raincheck after we voiced our complaints. They said it was a dry summer so the course was in rough shape (this didn't explain the uncut rough, but I will give some leeway here). Upon asking about the fertilizer appliation occuring during peak hours on a Sunday, they had to explanation. They just shook their heads. 

Was I right to request a refund in this situation? Is that normal to apply fertilizer / pesticide during peak playing hours? Has anyone else ever requested a refund upon finding a course in very poor condition? 

In reality I don't think it really matters what the rest of us think about others's decisions. That said, here is my take.  lol

If I think the course is so bad a refund is in order, I would leave after a couple holes. I wouldn't play the rest of the course, and then ask. Then again, I have never asked for a refund for bad conditions. Poor conditions means more thinking about how to play some shots. 

I have always gone (after paying my fees) with playing the course, and my ball as I find it. 

I have played on some really poorly maintained courses. I just made it a point to never go back for quite a while. You never know. A poorly maintained course today, might be in great shape in a month or so. 

As for spraying chemicals while playing, I would have problem with that due some of the chemicals being airborn, and a chance of inhaling some of the stuff. 

[mchepp]

I think you are fine to ask. The worst you can get is a "no". 

However I think you need to consider it from the golf courses perspective. Will you be prepared to pay an adder for the situation where the course is in fantastic shape? I think you need to consider the price you are paying as more of an average price. Sometimes you are on the shorter end of the stick and sometimes you walk away getting off cheaper. 

Let me also add, diseases on greens are common in the spring/fall because the grass is susceptible to those diseases. One one green gets the disease and a golfer walks onto the next green it spreads there, and so on. It can get out of control very fast. May have been a situation where the greens crew was always working to play catch up and they needed to get the treatment on the greens ASAP.  

[Braivo]

38 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

It seems weird that they would increase price for decreased condition, but then again, they might be hurting financially. It is very common these days. The odd thing is that increasing the price will tend to decrease revenue. Perhaps they've been spending too much time around the chemicals they've been spraying on the greens. 

I believe they are hurting and so they are making a last gasp at increasing revenue. Unfortunately, I don't think their strategy will work. Increasing prices AND improving conditions simultaneously could lead to them becoming a higher-end track. I hope this course cna make it. They hired a new greenskeeper this year and things haven't gone well for him. It is in a desirable area, I'm afraid it might start looking like a really good revenue option for the city to sell the property to a developer. 

Edited September 22, 2016 by Braivo