2016 MLB Playoffs

[jamo]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

This is a similar counter argument (well, thought, really because I never expressed it to anybody) to one I formed yesterday in response to a yahoo.com article criticizing Buck Showalter for not using his closer in the 11th inning of a tie game (as the road team, mind you).  He even called it one of the worst postseason mistakes in history.  That is a very ridiculous bit of Monday morning quarterbacking.  Even if he pitched a scoreless inning, you're still tied - You need a run.  And when you get it and you then have to close the game with your non closer and he fails, hmmm, I wonder what Yahoo "writer" is going to say then?

I think Showalter should have brought his closer in (keep in mind, he could have gone multiple innings), but I think a lot of the reaction about it being the worst move/non-move in history is overblown. As we saw with the Mets, closers mess up too. Even very good ones.

1 hour ago, mcanadiens said:

You worry about pitch counts during regular season games and the like. This was a one-and-done playoff game. Maybe you get someone working just in case, but I wasn't seeing enough to justify pulling him at that point. 

Tell that to Grady Little and Pedro.

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, jamo said:

I think Showalter should have brought his closer in (keep in mind, he could have gone multiple innings), but I think a lot of the reaction about it being the worst move/non-move in history is overblown. As we saw with the Mets, closers mess up too. Even very good ones.

This is the thing, if you didn't say it was the "worst move of all time" at the time it happened, you shouldn't get to say it once you know the results of the move.  In Showalter's case, he's made enough successful moves over the course of this season, and his career, that one unsuccessful decision shouldn't change anyone's opinion of him.  At this stage, though, its Dusty Baker's decisions that will be holding my attention.

[mcanadiens]

1 hour ago, jamo said:

Tell that to Grady Little and Pedro.

Did Syndergaard really look that tired to you? I wasn't seeing it.

Hell, no Reds pitcher should have pitched more than two innings this season at that rate.

[newtogolf]

If we're going to Thursday morning QB, I'd say given the pitch count, Collins should have pinch hit for Syndergard in the 7th when they had 1 out with runners at 1st and 2nd.  You knew Syndergard wasn't going to finish the game (at best he'd give you one more inning) and you haven't been able to score any runs so in that circumstance you have to go for runs.   

[dchoye]

I was waiting to see Britton out to pitch and close the door on the Jays but he never come out. It's like saving Usain Bolt for 5th leg of a relay race 

Buck's a good manager but that wasn't a good move, especially since Britton's got a good sinker and could have gotten a double play ball for that situation 

Britton's had a great season as a closer and he has a good chance to  win the Cy Young for the AL this year

Edited October 6, 2016 by dchoye

[Golfingdad]

6 minutes ago, dchoye said:

I was waiting to see Britton out to pitch and close the door on the Jays but he never come out. It's like saving Usain Bolt for 5th leg of a relay race 

Buck's a good manager but that wasn't a good move, especially since Britton's got a good sinker and could have gotten a double play ball for that situation 

Britton's had a great season as a closer and he has a good chance to  win the Cy Young for the AL this year

Close what door?  The Orioles didn't have a lead.

[dchoye]

10 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Close what door?  The Orioles didn't have a lead.

Neither did the Jays 

That was mistake Buck made  Why wait for a lead to put your closer in ?

Britton ERA is 0.54. That's impressive and he's good for at least a couple of innings if not more to close the door on the Jays

Edited October 6, 2016 by dchoye

[Gunther]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Close what door?  The Orioles didn't have a lead.

I'm pretty sure he meant close the door on the inning, with 2 men on.  He went on to talk about Britton's sinker that could have induced a DP.

Every manager has made this mistake, or pulled a starter too soon, multiple times.  I'm guessing Buck was thinking about Britton for the 12th and 13th, but you gotta think about now in extra innings of the last game of your season.  While ending in the worst result possible, it's a reach to call it the worst decision in history.

[Golfingdad]

17 minutes ago, dchoye said:

Neither did the Jays 

That was mistake Buck made  Why wait for a lead to put your closer in ?

Britton ERA is 0.54. That's impressive and he's good for at least a couple of innings if not more to close the door on the Jays

I don't disagree with any of this.  And my arguments are mostly directed at the yahoo article (not you) because that guy literally called it one of the worst moves in postseason history.  That, I find to be ridiculous because he is trying to make it sound like they would have won had he made that call.

Not to mention the fact that ace pitchers aren't infallible either.  The aforementioned 2003 ALCS call comes to mind.  As a Padres fan, game 3 of the 1998 WS also comes to mind ... where they DID bring in their ace and future hall of fame closer only to get Scott Brosius-ed.

In hindsight, and even in real time, he could have brought him in, but it guarantees nothing.

19 minutes ago, Gunther said:

I'm pretty sure he meant close the door on the inning, with 2 men on.

Gotcha.  That makes sense.

[StefanUrkel]

Very rarely does the best team win it all in MLB. Any team could beat the Cubs(best team by far) and the Red Sox(2nd best) in a 7 gamer.  Cubs/Red Sox would be a monster rating and amazing serious though

[Golfingdad]

On 10/5/2016 at 6:56 PM, Golfingdad said:

I'm married to a New Yorker who is a big Yankee fan, so rooting for NY teams (and against Boston - sorry @jamo and @boogielicious) is common in this household.

Good news guys ... I found myself really rooting for Boston while watching the end of that game last night.  I caught a bit of the pregame, which was an interview between Pedro Martinez and David Ortiz, and it reminded me just how awesome of a dude Ortiz is - so now I find myself rooting for him to go out in style! 

Sorry they lost.

[DaveP043]

I don't think I realized this before, but apparently I have a lingering resentment against Cole Hamels and the Rangers.  Cole Hamels because he pitched so long (and so well) for the Phillies, and the Rangers for leaving Washington DC so long ago.  Consequently, I wasn't at all disappointed to see Hamels and the Rangers take a bit of beating last night.

I didn't really have a favorite in the late game, but it was fun watching batting practice in the 3rd inning.

[jamo]

In game 1 of the Red Sox/Indians series and game 2 of the Cubs/Giants series, there have been incidents involving replays of players sliding into 2nd. Both times the players very briefly came off the base (arms overslid the base before their lower body could reach it), and were called out on replay. Ernie Johnson on the broadcast for the Red Sox game and Bob Costas on the broadcast for the Cubs game both disagreed with the rulings, while Cal Ripken Jr (the field reporter for the Red Sox game) disagreed with them.

What say you guys? To me, if you're off the base, you're off the base. It seems pretty simple. People seem to be objecting more to the fact that it's only something that's been repayable recently, and "neighborhood" plays, especially at 2nd, have been allowable for centuries. 

[Golfingdad]

24 minutes ago, jamo said:

In game 1 of the Red Sox/Indians series and game 2 of the Cubs/Giants series, there have been incidents involving replays of players sliding into 2nd. Both times the players very briefly came off the base (arms overslid the base before their lower body could reach it), and were called out on replay. Ernie Johnson on the broadcast for the Red Sox game and Bob Costas on the broadcast for the Cubs game both disagreed with the rulings, while Cal Ripken Jr (the field reporter for the Red Sox game) disagreed with them.

What say you guys? To me, if you're off the base, you're off the base. It seems pretty simple. People seem to be objecting more to the fact that it's only something that's been repayable recently, and "neighborhood" plays, especially at 2nd, have been allowable for centuries. 

I didn't see the plays, but do you mean that they slid past the base or were off to the side of the base, or do you mean that  their body was above but not touching it for a bit as they slid over?

If it's either of the formers then it seems pretty straight forward that they are out, but if it's the latter, then I can see the argument for them being called safe.

[jamo]

Just now, Golfingdad said:

I didn't see the plays, but do you mean that they slid past the base or were off to the side of the base, or do you mean that  their body was above but not touching it for a bit as they slid over?

If it's either of the formers then it seems pretty straight forward that they are out, but if it's the latter, then I can see the argument for them being called safe.

Their body was above but not touching the base as they slid over. 

[Golfingdad]

50 minutes ago, jamo said:

Their body was above but not touching the base as they slid over. 

Ok, then in that case I'm with the announcers who disagreed with the call. Consider also when players slide feet first, I would bet there would be frequent instances where his front foot hits the bag and then sort of "bounces" up as it comes off to go over the bag and he's "hovering" over it for a split second before either his tucked foot or his butt hits the base.

A ball that arrives late but is just held against the player throughout the slide could be turned into an out on replay many, many times.  That doesn't sit right with me.

OTOH, if he slides hard and late and goes past, or tries to slide wide to avoid the tag and his hand comes off before his toe gets on, those are different stories in my opinion.  That's the risk he's taking by trying so hard to beat a throw or avoid a tag.  But what you're describing is just the nature of an odd shaped human being bouncing into and hitting a 3D rubber (or whatever its made of) cube.

[iacas]

They're out. Touching the base is touching the base.

There's no longer a neighborhood play at second base either. The shortstop or whomever has to touch the base with the ball.

Once you start saying you're "close enough" you add grey area where there need not be any.

There's also an art to sliding and maintaining contact.

This rule has been called for at least a few years now. Last year several Pirates were called out on replay trying to steal second for not maintaining contact.

It's right IMO. Maintain contact. Can't really write it any other way.

[boogielicious]

9 hours ago, jamo said:

In game 1 of the Red Sox/Indians series and game 2 of the Cubs/Giants series, there have been incidents involving replays of players sliding into 2nd. Both times the players very briefly came off the base (arms overslid the base before their lower body could reach it), and were called out on replay. Ernie Johnson on the broadcast for the Red Sox game and Bob Costas on the broadcast for the Cubs game both disagreed with the rulings, while Cal Ripken Jr (the field reporter for the Red Sox game) disagreed with them.

What say you guys? To me, if you're off the base, you're off the base. It seems pretty simple. People seem to be objecting more to the fact that it's only something that's been repayable recently, and "neighborhood" plays, especially at 2nd, have been allowable for centuries. 

They're out. It is the rule. Pretty simple. I never liked the 'neighborhood' plays either. We can't have the game have to be precise in one place and loosey-goosey in another. The strike zone is another grey area.