"Playing From a Position" à la Jim Venetos

[TRUCKER]

14 hours ago, Vinsk said:

The only difference in the set up is for beginners or less flexible people he recommends moving your trail foot back a few inches or more to make the ‘pivot’ and weight on lead foot easier.

Yeah, exactly. So why the "oh I've taken his classes and never heard of the different setups for different abilities" response then, when I said I watched a video of him showing exactly what you just said.

13 hours ago, iacas said:

Uhm, @TRUCKER, in addition to everything else @billchao said, this:

It's like asking a 20 HC to score the same as you. I don't know how to do what you're asking. Besides, read my last post. The guy who took the class even says now, that he has different setups for beginners, or less flexible people, which is exactly what I said I watched in the video.

[klineka]

7 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

It's like asking a 20 HC to score the same as you. I don't know how to do what you're asking. 

Dude. C'mon. Are you seriously trying to compare asking a 20 hcp to play at a scratch or better level vs. someone asking you to copy and paste a link? 

You honestly expect us to believe that you know how join and make over 200 posts on an online forum but don't know how to copy/paste a link? 

[ChetlovesMer]

15 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

It's like asking a 20 HC to score the same as you. I don't know how to do what you're asking. 

Seriously? I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt on this. But if I understand you correctly, you are saying that you don't know how to copy and paste a link? … Not only that, but you are saying it would be so hard to learn it that it's comparable to playing scratch golf as a 20 hcp. Trucker?... come on, buddy? I know you know how to put emoji's into your posts, copy and paste has got to be on relatively the same level. … I suspect you are trolling us. 

[boogielicious]

3 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Seriously? I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt on this. But if I understand you correctly, you are saying that you don't know how to copy and paste a link? … Not only that, but you are saying it would be so hard to learn it that it's comparable to playing scratch golf as a 20 hcp. Trucker?... come on, buddy? I know you know how to put emoji's into your posts, copy and paste has got to be on relatively the same level. … I suspect you are trolling us. 

I have this great photo that proves the existence of alien life of superior intelligence living amongst us. But I can’t figure out how to upload it. 🤪

He’s trolling and there are no videos of what he speaks. 

[Darkfrog]

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I suspect you are trolling us

 

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

He’s trolling

Considering @TRUCKER's post history, I'd say trolling 100%.

[Vinsk]

golfers...

I'm coming in here with the point of view that the current golf paradigm is flawed.

Tour pros are inconsistent, the average golfer never struggles to improve, and the current paradigm doesn't have a solution for any of this.
- Jim

@Robos these kind of statements are what make me want real answers, data and research. A bold statement he makes there. I think he meant ‘always’ instead of ‘never’ as well.

 

[HoganApexFan]

Greetings and apologies for coming so late to the party...

In case anyone was still remotely interested in Jim Venetos swing, I wanted to confirm that he definitely has three very different setup positions based on an individual golfer's skill level, flexibility, and tendency to swing over the top.  The most extreme is similar to Jim Flick's Back to the Target Drill ("Swing for a Lifetime"); the intermediate is what seems to be in 99% of his videos; and the advanced looks like a typical closed stance setup typically taught for hitting a draw.

The youtube video showing these 3 setups is short and titled: "OVER THE TOP NO MORE!! How To Fix Your Take-Away, Backswing, Downswing & Impact All At Once!!" and the link to the video is:

I tried this swing a few years ago, and while I found his arguments to be logical and interesting, the swing just didn't seem to work for me.  I didn't like the feeling of the pre-set at all, and I probably way overdid the stillness thing to try and correct some of my ingrained swing flaws.  Since all of my research and efforts since then have only produced inconsistencies and frustration, I am seriously considering giving this another go (his advanced setup seems similar to what I used back when I could actually play decently with persimmon woods and blades!)

Regardless, there seems to have been a lot of claims in this thread that using this swing would have to result in a 10-15% loss of speed and distance because not all of the traditional sources of power were being used.  I was reminded of a couple of Shawn Clement's videos in which he claims to have better swing speed, compression and carries the ball farther with using a One-Leg Drill than he does from a normal stance (BTW, his normal stance includes a pre-set that seems strangely similar to Jim Venetos).

With his Feet Together, Shawn's 7 iron has an avg swing speed of 84 mph and a carry ~167 yards (165, 167, 170 - all 10+ yards more than me!) which he says is around 90% of his normal distance (Pete Cowen and Mike Malaska make similar claims).  When hitting the ball using a one leg grill, the same 7 iron has an avg swing speed of 96.7 mph, ball speed of 131 mph, and carry ~195 yards (189, 199, 203, 205).

I would also like to point out the Ernest Jones ("Swing the Handle") shot a 78 within a week of being released from the hospital after his right leg was amputated below the knee, and within a couple of weeks was shooting even par.  His success with a tight, circular swing and "playing on one leg disproved the emphasis which so many still place on body pivot" (Ch 18 "The Secret of Golf").

Again, I apologize for coming so late to the party, but my recent struggles have led me to reconsider my swing options, and my research has led me here.  I know that several people had asked for the link regarding the 3 setups and I was hoping to be helpful, especially since I only recently found it myself...

Thanks in advance for your patience and any wisdom or assistance you can provide this old golfaholic and forum newbie...

Respectfully, Jim D

Edited March 25, 2020 by iacas
embedded video

[iacas]

One guy doing something doesn't "disprove" anything in this case, and I'm on record here many times as saying the trail leg doesn't do much of anything in the downswing of a golf swing, so you're talking about two different things.

Jim is voluntarily giving up a source of speed and power by limiting body rotation. He's throwing his arms from an unmoving platform, versus the "traditional" swing which moves the platform (the torso) against which the shoulders throw.

I can throw a baseball faster from a flatbed of a truck going 40 MPH than I can from the same truck when it's parked.

[Vinsk]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

I can throw a baseball faster from a flatbed of a truck going 40 MPH than I can from the same truck when it's parked.

I think this is pretty solid in explaining Erik’s point. I’m using this method because it’s easier for me to make good shots. Period. For me. I think the error JV makes is his repetitive claim  that the conventional method’ is wrong. Just because a method is more difficult or requires more skill doesn’t mean it’s wrong. The best golfers in the world don’t swing with this method and it sure as hell isn't because they’ve been mislead their whole lives.

Its also a bit silly to say that tour pros aren’t consistent. Shooting under par for multiple rounds with the bad round being 72 is hardly inconsistent. JV also states ‘ shifting your weight actually causes a loss in power.’ Come on man. 
 

It’s fine to promote the swing as an alternative for those like me who really struggle with good ball striking when we try to shift and rotate. But to claim that elite golfers would improve their game with his method without showing proof or at least showing his own numbers is rather disingenuous. He states he has a student who is a +7 hcp...who’s playing on mini-tours who uses this method. Ok. Show us. Show us his scores and his swing, his practice sessions on a monitor. 
 

I don’t think I’ll be able to generate the same SS with this method with my long irons as my Mevo had me at least 10mph slower. But my ball striking is much better, consistent with this method. I have better launch angles and SF and more consistently.

I still would very much like to see JV hit his driver with 118mph SS. He does rotate his hips on the downswing but It just doesn’t ‘look’ like a 118mph swing.

 

 

 

[iacas]

All of that. Bingo.

[Robos]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

I think this is pretty solid in explaining Erik’s point. I’m using this method because it’s easier for me to make good shots. Period. For me. I think the error JV makes is his repetitive claim  that the conventional method’ is wrong. Just because a method is more difficult or requires more skill doesn’t mean it’s wrong. The best golfers in the world don’t swing with this method and it sure as hell isn't because they’ve been mislead their whole lives.

Its also a bit silly to say that tour pros aren’t consistent. Shooting under par for multiple rounds with the bad round being 72 is hardly inconsistent. JV also states ‘ shifting your weight actually causes a loss in power.’ Come on man. 

Agree with all this. Lots of anecdotes that the JV swing makes amateurs better. Without data, or at least anecdotal evidence Jim shouldn’t make these claims about pro’s.

I will say that I just got a mevo+ and discovered that while I normally hit my 9 iron 120y, if I reduced effort, maintain stillness, and just focus on my weight I started smoking my 9i 140y. I’m still not consistent hitting 140, but there is something to what he teaches. Tho like you said data is king and it’s lacking.

 

[Vinsk]

2 minutes ago, Robos said:

Agree with all this. Lots of anecdotes that the JV swing makes amateurs better. Without data, or at least anecdotal evidence Jim shouldn’t make these claims about pro’s.

I will say that I just got a mevo+ and discovered that while I normally hit my 9 iron 120y, if I reduced effort, maintain stillness, and just focus on my weight I started smoking my 9i 140y. I’m still not consistent hitting 140, but there is something to what he teaches. Tho like you said data is king and it’s lacking.

 

I have gained yards on my 7i-SW. Yes. But it’s because my strike is better. 89mph with an over the top path/SF 1.1 won’t give me what an 84mph/SF 1.48 will. 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I have gained yards on my 7i-SW. Yes. But it’s because my strike is better. 89mph with an over the top path/SF 1.1 won’t give me what an 84mph/SF 1.48 will. 

If you're getting 1.48 with even your 7I, you're de-lofting the HELL out of it. So of course it goes farther.

[Bonvivant]

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

If you're getting 1.48 with even your 7I, you're de-lofting the HELL out of it. So of course it goes farther.

Just curious, what does a pro get from the longest iron (2-4) in their bag in regards to SF?

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Just curious, what does a pro get from the longest iron (2-4) in their bag in regards to SF?

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/32498-trackman-data-pga-tour-vs-lpga-with-2017-data/?do=findComment&comment=1319198

 

[Vinsk]

43 minutes ago, iacas said:

If you're getting 1.48 with even your 7I, you're de-lofting the HELL out of it. So of course it goes farther.

Right. Often my setup puts considerable lean on the club.  Not so much when I place the ball further ahead. That hits a nice high gentle draw. Also, my new shafts ( +1”) really suit me well.

[Vinsk]

Keeping weight still squares the club face because weight squares the club face? I don’t see this at all. Weight is not connected to the club. People can do all sorts of things with their hands which are directly connected to the club and manipulate the club face. I understand he’s main concept is ‘stillness’ but he’s not still. His arms are moving the club and he has to hold the club all during this movement. I think he’s assuming anyone will just grip the club properly and make the backswing without doing anything with their hands. Weight squares the club face? I don’t see where he gets this idea. Anyone agree? 

[Robos]

59 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Keeping weight still squares the club face because weight squares the club face? I don’t see this at all. Weight is not connected to the club. People can do all sorts of things with their hands which are directly connected to the club and manipulate the club face. I understand he’s main concept is ‘stillness’ but he’s not still. His arms are moving the club and he has to hold the club all during this movement. I think he’s assuming anyone will just grip the club properly and make the backswing without doing anything with their hands. Weight squares the club face? I don’t see where he gets this idea. Anyone agree? 

Hmm, I think what he’s saying..,

when he opens the face of his 9i it’s naturally not square in the same way it was unopened at impact, yet he hit a tight draw. So I think what he’s really saying is don’t worry about your club face, just worry about staying closed through impact and you’ll get a tight draw - and to do that maintain still weight.

However, for me this simply does not work. Maintaining still weight through impact doesn’t always produce a tight draw. Shoulders/etc move despite your weight.