Playing Lesson or Range Time?

[PeterFaragher]

Hi Guys,

As a PGA professional I spend a lot of my time giving lessons and helping students improve their games. I have however been having a few thoughts about how I deliver my coaching and I would love to get a few thoughts. 

Traditionally, people will come to me and tell me they are having issues with driving, pitching etc. We will then go and work on that specific skill with the hopes that making this change will ultimately improve their scores. I often have wondered would coaches be better off giving lessons on the course so that they could see all of the students game during a lesson? Although the student may feel they have an issue with a certain aspect of the game, a coach would be able to find the root cause of the problem. An example would be a lot of golfers complain they struggle with putting; when in fact they regularly leave themselves 50ft+ putts and in reality what they actually struggle with is pitching the ball close enough to the hole with their 2nd or 3rd shot.

 

I would love to get some thoughts on this, have any of you had lessons and not seen improvements? Do you feel you would of been better off learning on the course?

 

All the best,

Peter Faragher

[Lazarus]

There's certainly an issue with that.  What you as a player think is the problem/priority piece for you is quite possibly not but the coach needs to be on to that. I've had the "okay we can take a look at that but let's just hit a few balls" so he can see whats happening with my swing. However if something bugs a player (like getting whooped by his mates due to terrible chipping or weak driving) they want to come out of it with some answers to work on. I think a coach can find the priorities up to a low hcap level player, when scoring and course management data is more helpful. 

[Hatchman]

41 minutes ago, PeterFaragher said:

Do you feel you would of been better off learning on the course?

Welcome Peter.  You covered a lot.  But if I could, I would like a split or rotating lesson where fundamentals are taught then application on the course, if possible.  This suits me well for providing feedback while working with an the instructor I've had earlier, depending on starting point of the student.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Hatchman

[PeterFaragher]

I think there is certainly a case to be made for players having a split lesson, this would certainly help me identify the weaknesses in a players game a lot faster and the player would also see its on course application.

I have often wondered whether coaching is now becoming a little bit too technical, I often see what I would class a 'Range Players' guys that hit it beautifully on the range and very technique focused but really struggle to transition that to the golf course. Of course there is no substitute for sound technique but I don't think as coaches we help players understand the ability to manage the course is equally as important as being a good ball striker.

Thanks for the feedback fellas!

[Marty2019]

1 hour ago, PeterFaragher said:

I would love to get some thoughts on this, have any of you had lessons and not seen improvements? Do you feel you would of been better off learning on the course?

 

 

To answer your first question, I am taking lessons and I have seen improvements. 

I would love to take a playing lesson just for the pure enjoyment of seeing my instructor hit the ball, and getting his advice and coaching during a round.   However, I have to ask: my lessons are a half hour.  Playing golf takes about 4 hours.  Would a playing lesson cost 8 times as much as a regular half hour lesson?   I'm just not sure I would get 8 times the benefit from a playing lesson as I would from 8 range lessons separated by a week or two each. 

[RandallT]

I am not an instructor, but for the past couple years, I've been getting a bit more serious about learning via video lessons. Here are my thoughts:

1. For a new player who is anything higher than, say, a 10 handicap- I'd think the default position for an instructor is to work significantly on the full swing- both driver and irons. Fix the swing problems. That will get you to a point where golf is more fun- hitting greens or getting near them consistently. Yes, there's short game and putting work that could be done too, but no huge need to do an assessment on course.
2. As you get down to lower handicap players, the more fine tuning is involved, and perhaps a coach can help identify a targeted spot for improvement. BUT. Even then, playing a single round is anecdotal. If you are just there to analyze their swing fundamentals for each skill area, then you could just do that in the practice area.
3. To assess a player's putting, you could just give them an assignment. Tell them to go off and play "18 holes" on the practice green with representative putt lengths people see on the course (average proximity of 17ft-ish, a few putts well beyond that, but over half under 15ft). Then just do a strokes gained analysis of that. Heck, you could give them 2 "rounds" to do, and have them tell you their total putts.
4. Ditto for short game. I'd think you could give them some assessment they could go do, and you could score them. Plus, you could just watch them do a few different style shots and likely know right away if their technique is wildly off.
5. Plus, playing a round with them would cost a lot and take a long time, wouldn't it? 
6. If the cost and time involved is reasonable for everyone, I think playing a round would be the best way to truly know the player (keeping in mind the anecdotal nature of one round). Getting out and playing a round with someone is a great experience. Not even for just sizing up the golf skills- but for getting a sense of their personality and how they deal with adversity. All that intangible stuff that may or may not help an instructor, but it's a way to get to the person in a way that hanging out on the practice tee isn't.

Anyway, I'm more on the stats geek side of things, so I know what I'd do. I get people to assess their rounds all the time. I see crazy rounds sometimes that don't fit their profile. I see people who are inaccurate with their feel on their strength/weakness. So I like to do this for multiple rounds and average them out:

They simply fill out their distance to the hole and their lie for the start of every shot. Everything else calculates. Gives you a sense of their blow up holes, how consistently they can get on or near the green, etc. Visually you see their trouble with the yellow and red shades. You can easily spot how much they putt with the green cells. Plus, you get this, derived from PGA data found here:

Instant assessment.

Edited December 22, 2016 by RandallT
swapped in correct sg summary!

[dennyjones]

@RandallT, you're analysis is right on.   My instructor offers a 9 hole playing lesson for $150 but I have not pull that trigger.   I believe if everyone had your analysis data, they could see their own areas that need improvement.   

[CarlSpackler]

Here are a few thoughts.

• Someone may make better or different decisions on the course if their pro is watching them, so you might not get a good feeling for what is going on. They might also be nervous and play differently perhaps. You could review their Game Golf or a VLOG of them playing for additional insight instead.
• Improving their full swing is usually the most import thing, and I wouldn't think that trying to make changes on the course is a good thing to promote.
• I would wager that most people don't improve because they don't practice outside of their lessons. This is what I found out when I was teaching drum lessons. I noticed improvements when I started having them keep a practice log.

[iacas]

I've rarely found playing lessons to be worth the time. Mine are discounted heavily (because, let's be honest, it's easier "work"), and I find that asking a few questions typically leads to the answers I need re: their true shortcomings. Failing that, I watch them hit a few shots.

Playing lessons work to reinforce something already covered on the range, IMO. It helps you to deduce whether someone can align themselves for the shot they're trying to play without the rope lines or clubs or dividers like you find on the range. It helps you to determine whether someone is honest about their distances. Whether they make the right decisions on their short game shots, etc.

It sounds like I just named a bunch of reasons why playing lessons are good, but take the last one for example: do they make the right decisions on their short game shots? The thing is even in a playing lesson how many decisions can you make out of the infinite number that are out there? Can you make a shot from an uphill lie to a downhill green? With water long and the pin long? A bunker to carry? The pin short? From every kind of lie - perched, buried, normal, fairway, rough, hardpan…?

No, you can't approach covering 10% of the situations a golfer will face. You can cover far more around a dedicated short game area, with practice balls that you don't have to pick up, and no worries about golfers hitting into you because you've been on the green for 15 minutes.

The range (or putting green, short game area) is often a far better use of the student's time. Have them keep a log. Look at their GAME GOLF data. Have them fill out the post-round LSW worksheet.

[Baculus]

This thread reminds me of an article I liked a while back (had to scroll back my facebook feed to find it) 

 

http://www.golflink.com.au/news/in-depth/2016/11/aussie-golfer-shane-lowry-touches-a-nerve.aspx

(Includes video worth watching)

Interesting comments : 

Lamenting the seeming obsession of many golfers in developing the perfect swing, Lowry had some old school advice for players of all levels.

“You've got guys like Adam Scott and Louis Oosthuizen and Rory McIlroy who swing the club absolutely perfectly,” he said.

“But we're all out here and we all can beat each other and we can get around in a lower score than them even though we don't swing it as good as them, and that's what the game of golf is about.

“We didn't learn how to swing the club, we learned how to play golf. I think that's what golf's all about, it's playing the game and not swinging the club.

“I think we need to teach that to kids, to let them out on the golf course rather than out on the driving range.

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Baculus
Grammar

[Patch]

My thoughts are that on course instruction at some point would be most beneficial to the student, and the instructor. The instructor will see the on course mental, and physical flaws the student has acquired, and the student will have more understandable information to work with. With on course instructon, the student will have a better idea as to why their instructor wants them to do things. 

I am also of the opinion that an instructor would be better off understanding the good parts of the student's swing, and working from there.  Perhaps the student already has decent full swing results,  but suffers from on, and around the green. Perhaps it's the other way around. The idea of breaking down a student's current swing, and starting from scratch from the instructor's point of view, is not very educational to the student in a lot of cases. 

Another thought I have about instruction is the instructor being able to explain, with video back up, what swing flaws the student has, that are creating the poor ball flights. Understanding the problem always makes for a faster, more understandable solution.

Last but not least, the student should be required to keep their own pocket note book that keeps track of their instruction. Something that holds information the student can refer to later on when their instructor is not available. 

[RH31]

I've been playing golf on and off for 30+ years. I've taken numerous lessons, both good and bad, over the years. At this point, my game more or less is what it is.

I think on course lessons would probably help me more. I think it's easier to set up and hit an OK shot on a wide open range or practice green, than it is to hit a meaningful shot on the course when it counts. Hazards, trees, rough, slope, cock eyed tee boxes etc., probably affect my game as much as my ability or lack thereof to repeat my swing. The drive that seemed OK on the range, may end up behind an overhanging limb on the course. The 8 iron that I hit well on the range may have ballooned and plugged in the face of the bunker on the course. Not to mention on the practice tee you always hit balls one after the other and at a faster pace than when playing.

I think you'd see more true swings and truer results on the course than on the range.

 

[Buckeyebowman]

I think it really depends on where the student is in relation to the game. I think it comes down to 2 parts. Learning to make a golf swing (or HIT the ball), and learning to play the game! To my mind, those are two different things. Does the appellation "Rickey Ranger" mean anything to anybody?

If the student can't make even a half decent golf swing, what use is a playing lesson? It's of no use at all because THEY CAN'T PLAY!  And if they can only make good swings on the range, again THEY CAN'T PLAY!  If, when confronted with the variables that occur on the course they fold up like a suitcase, they need something else, and I honestly don't know what that might be.

We play with a guy who makes Walter Hagen look like Adam Scott! This guy weeble wobbles all over the place, but, he has his ideas about golf. He never asks for advice, which we are thankful for since we'd have no idea what to tell him! The thing is, this guy can generate terrific clubhead speed. I've seen him drive a 340 yard par 4!

But, he's happy with his game, which usually puts him in the low 100's for 18. He lies to us, telling us how he's scoring in the low 40's in his league, but we see the truth. We're playing courses no harder than his league course. Maybe this is most he aspires to, and he's happy with that.

 

 

[Rainmaker]

On December 22, 2016 at 6:21 AM, dennyjones said:

@RandallT, you're analysis is right on.   My instructor offers a 9 hole playing lesson for $150 but I have not pull that trigger.   I believe if everyone had your analysis data, they could see their own areas that need improvement.   

Mine does, too...I think it's actually 200...but anyway...I would love to...would be enjoyable and I'm certain I'd learn some things I might not on the lesson tee....but no..haven't done it and don't plan to based on cost. Not saying it's not worth it....but I can't justify it. 

[Nevsteve]

Please excuse my lengthy post seeing as it is only my second post on the Sand Trap, but I find this discussion very interesting. 

When I used to play previously in the late 80s/early 90s, I was a consistent 18 handicap. I then had to stop playing for around 20 years due to circumstances.

Since starting to play again 2 years ago I have been unable to get my handicap below 36 according to the Handicaps Network Africa. During the 2 years I have only shot lower than 110 on 3 occasions, and they were still more than 100.

I was going regularly to the driving range, so eventually I went to a reputable instructor in our area for 1 lesson during which certain aspects of my address were corrected and I was also not following through completely with my swing. After that lesson I was told to go practice and play some rounds and come back in a few months for a check up. 

About a month later I went back for a lesson to work on my chipping which was also letting me down. After 5 minutes I was chipping much better, and was then moved to other positions around the green, including chipping over a bunker.

My instructor asked me to remind her what my handicap was and I said 36. She said, no really. I repeated what my handicap was. She said that watching me on the driving range and during the chipping lesson I should be about a 13.

So, when on the driving range and practicing my chipping it is great, but I can't seem to carry that onto the golf course.

I have read that this is quite common due to various reasons, but I have often wondered if I would perhaps benefit from a lesson on the golf course during a round. 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by Nevsteve

[saevel25]

On 12/22/2016 at 9:14 AM, Baculus said:

Interesting comments : 

Lamenting the seeming obsession of many golfers in developing the perfect swing, Lowry had some old school advice for players of all levels.

“You've got guys like Adam Scott and Louis Oosthuizen and Rory McIlroy who swing the club absolutely perfectly,” he said.

“But we're all out here and we all can beat each other and we can get around in a lower score than them even though we don't swing it as good as them, and that's what the game of golf is about.

“We didn't learn how to swing the club, we learned how to play golf. I think that's what golf's all about, it's playing the game and not swinging the club.

“I think we need to teach that to kids, to let them out on the golf course rather than out on the driving range.

 

I do not like that quote. It's assuming that every golfer can magically get a good swing just by playing. There are golfers who never break 90 consistently and don't take lessons. For some people playing isn't good enough. For most PGA Tour players, just playing isn't good enough. 

[Buckeyebowman]

15 hours ago, Nevsteve said:

Please excuse my lengthy post seeing as it is only my second post on the Sand Trap, but I find this discussion very interesting. 

When I used to play previously in the late 80s/early 90s, I was a consistent 18 handicap. I then had to stop playing for around 20 years due to circumstances.

Since starting to play again 2 years ago I have been unable to get my handicap below 36 according to the Handicaps Network Africa. During the 2 years I have only shot lower than 110 on 3 occasions, and they were still more than 100.

I was going regularly to the driving range, so eventually I went to a reputable instructor in our area for 1 lesson during which certain aspects of my address were corrected and I was also not following through completely with my swing. After that lesson I was told to go practice and play some rounds and come back in a few months for a check up. 

About a month later I went back for a lesson to work on my chipping which was also letting me down. After 5 minutes I was chipping much better, and was then moved to other positions around the green, including chipping over a bunker.

My instructor asked me to remind her what my handicap was and I said 36. She said, no really. I repeated what my handicap was. She said that watching me on the driving range and during the chipping lesson I should be about a 13.

So, when on the driving range and practicing my chipping it is great, but I can't seem to carry that onto the golf course.

I have read that this is quite common due to various reasons, but I have often wondered if I would perhaps benefit from a lesson on the golf course during a round. 

 

 

You are not alone. I think the difference is simple. Practice is practice, playing is PLAYING! Playing introduces pressure, pressure to score. And to stay out of the woods, and bunkers, and water hazards, and rough! If you miss a shot on the range, well that's regrettable, but it doesn't really count because it doesn't affect your score. There is no "score" on the practice range, and maybe one is needed. Maybe each golfer needs to devise his or her own scoring system for their range time. Introduce a little "pressure" into your practice sessions so you can learn to handle it on the course.

14 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I do not like that quote. It's assuming that every golfer can magically get a good swing just by playing. There are golfers who never break 90 consistently and don't take lessons. For some people playing isn't good enough. For most PGA Tour players, just playing isn't good enough. 

I don't think that's what he was saying at all. I think he was saying much as I said above. Practicing, and playing to make a score are two different animals. Of course you need some minimal degree of competence at swinging a club and hitting a ball to even be allowed on a course! But once you get on the course, things get a bit different.

This is what makes me chuckle at the "tin cuppers" out there. The guys who, after bashing one into the tall and uncut, drop the second ball (which they always have in pocket) to figure out what they did wrong. The idea is to have some idea of how to do it right the first time!

I never drop a second ball on a full shot when playing! What's the point? The only time I'll try a shot again is on the green when I've made a horrible misread. And only if I'm not holding anyone up. All I'm trying to do is gain some knowledge about the green for when I play there again.

If I hit a poor full shot all I can do is go find, or try to find, the ball and deal with the consequences. That's the main difference between practice and playing. There are no consequences in practice.

Practice and play work hand in glove. But, once a certain level of competence is reached, I would suggest that playing is more important. You have to learn to deal with the course. I'll never forget a tip I read many years ago from a pro, might have been Nicklaus. They said, "When you're playing well, go play! If you stop playing well, and some persistent fault has worked it's way into your swing, then you need to go to the range and straighten it out. Once you do that, go play!"

 

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

You are not alone. I think the difference is simple. Practice is practice, playing is PLAYING! Playing introduces pressure, pressure to score. And to stay out of the woods, and bunkers, and water hazards, and rough! If you miss a shot on the range, well that's regrettable, but it doesn't really count because it doesn't affect your score. There is no "score" on the practice range, and maybe one is needed. Maybe each golfer needs to devise his or her own scoring system for their range time. Introduce a little "pressure" into your practice sessions so you can learn to handle it on the course.

There is a score in practicing - it's how well you've changed the picture. How well you've worked on your priority piece. How well you figured out your wedge distances. How well you've managed your start lines.

In LSW we proposed a number of ways you can keep score by practicing different things.

You can only get so good playing golf. Playing golf does not give you the opportunity to hit the same shot from a tricky lie or an awkward or different situation until you figure it out, and it may be weeks or months before you see that same situation again.

Most people who "practice" don't do so with any purpose, and that is the real problem (for those who want to improve - if you're content to just play golf and do as you've always done, by all means, have a ball!).