It's All About the Ball - and Ego

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

A poll in another thread shows me that I don't have an audience here. I guess I'm a thorn that doesn't need to be in the paw. If none of what I've said makes any sense to anybody here, which 90% disagree with, then I'll shut up. I am pissing into the wind.

Erik stated your comment about hitting a soft ball 250 sometimes but lucky to hit a ProV1 a buck fifty makes no sense. It doesn't. You're not a thorn. You have an audience. But this audience is not only here to listen and watch the show. We participate with debates including but not limited to: Opinions, facts, beliefs, jokes and sarcasm. Tally Ho!

Edited March 2, 2017 by Vinsk

[MuniGrit]

7 hours ago, CarlSpackler said:

I'm comfortable with my masculinity. I don't have to play from the back tees to prove anything.

Nothing annoys me more than guys playing the tips that have no business playing them. I played last weekend and watched this foursome that was twosomes paired together. On the first tee one group played the tips(7100 yards) the other played one tee up. We watched the guys playing the tips pump their drives out there about 230. We thought well they will all probably play one up now that they know who they are playing with. It was an extremely slow day so we got to watch all their tee shots and they all were playing from the tips. All four of these guys hit it 240 at best off the tee. 210 yard par 3 they are all hitting 3 woods which is another sign you are on the wrong tees if you have to use a fairway wood. When all pulled the 3 woods everyone in my group was like I bet not one of them hits the green. It was very frustrating so after 9 we played the front again to end the agony.

[Blackjack Don]

16 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Erik stated your comment about hitting a soft ball 250 sometimes but lucky to hit a ProV1 a buck fifty makes no sense. It doesn't. You're not a thorn. You have an audience. But this audience is not only here to listen and watch the show. We participate with debates including but not limited to: Opinions, facts, beliefs, jokes and sarcasm. Tally Ho!

That was a dumb comment by me. I don't know what I was thinking, or even if I was. (Legal substances here in Nevada do tend to work against thinking sometimes, thank god.) Just dumb and regrettable. 

When 90% of a group thinks nothing should change, and that a shrinking base is not a problem, that's a place where my liberal, populist opinions aren't going to be, well, popular. I want to see more people playing this wonderful game. I remember when Bushwood was the rule, and the only minorities you'd see were carrying bags. But as long as I can find a place to play that I can afford, I'm going to keep playing because I love the game. Perhaps not all of the traditions, but still, the game is unique.

I am often wrong. I find I learn more when I'm wrong than when I'm right. I rarely learn anything when I'm right. I don't care about being right, just getting it right. Being wrong is on the way to getting it right.

[Phil McGleno]

@Blackjack Don -For F***s sake man stop with the commentary on the commentary.-Stop playing the Nobody Likes Me I am Such a Victim bullshit.

All anyone wants you to do is just talk about golf with the humility of someone relatively new and-For now sucky to the game. ENough of the teenage girl drama crap.

And who cares if people agree with you or not?- If you need validation from a bunch of people on the Internet you were probably a pretty shitty monk.

I do not think this topic can go back on topic now but hopefully.

[70sSanO]

I saw that TaylorMade has a 5 layer golf ball.  The good thing is that even if you can't hit it, you can go out for Lasagna after the round.

John

Edited March 6, 2017 by 70sSanO

[CCC]

On 1/6/2017 at 0:31 PM, Blackjack Don said:

Let's say the "average" weekend golfer hits a 7 iron 150 yards.

If I could hit my 7 iron 150 yards (carry). I would consider myself way above "average" - for a weekend golfer.

[Lihu]

Quote

Yet the average golfer compares himself to par. The only way I can see to make the game seem "fair" is to reverse the technology. De-tune the golf ball is a step.

Somehow, I don't think a PGA pro is playing the same par 4 that we are. Theirs can go as long as 530+ yards at sea level, while really good amateurs play from less than 475 yards at sea level.

The ones you or I should be playing are on average sub-400 yards or about 391 yards.

http://blog.trackmangolf.com/performance-of-the-average-male-amateur/

Tee	Average Par 4 Length	Approach After Actual (226 yards)	Approach After Optimal (255 yards)
Black	450 yards	224 yards	195 yards
Blue	428 yards	202 yards	173 yards
White	410 yards	184 yards	155 yards
Green	391 yards	165 yards	136 yards
Red	328 yards	102 yards	73 yards

Take the 450 yard estimate and subtract from 390 and you get 60 yards difference or about 6 clubs difference on the approach. Even at 430 yards, there's 4 clubs difference.

So, if you play a PGA length course you might need an additional stroke or two per hole, but if you play from the proper tees you could play for par.

 

1 hour ago, CCC said:

On 1/6/2017 at 9:31 AM, Blackjack Don said:

Let's say the "average" weekend golfer hits a 7 iron 150 yards. The average tour player might hit a sand wedge this far?

If I could hit my 7 iron 150 yards (carry). I would consider myself way above "average" - for a weekend golfer.

That's above average for sure, carry a 7i 150 is in the 98mph driver SS range which translates roughly to a 6 handicap.

 

 

[Blackjack Don]

11 hours ago, Lihu said:

So, if you play a PGA length course you might need an additional stroke or two per hole, but if you play from the proper tees you could play for par.

Got this in the mailbox and felt I had to come back and praise this post. Nicely done. If the USGA had done the sensible thing and leave the rules as they are for "tournament" play--and for anyone who wants the stiffest of tests--and done separate rules for the rest of us, we could have addressed this. Marketing, I think, or media, is the only way to get people to play their game and not the pro game. "Tee it forward" didn't exactly get the word out.

Nobody told me that the red tees are ladies' tees. Nobody ever explained to me that par is meant for the expert golfer. I heard yesterday that only 3% of golfers ever break 80. From the stats, with my driver speed, the best I can reasonably hope for is low 80's. Maybe I can do better if I have a great short game, but that's just me. Not sure how dedicated the average golfer is to developing their game. The rules, and the marketing of the game, need to focus on what the average 50 year of male needs out on the course. If it's more beer, then that's okay, too.

My point has been in all of my posts is make it easier for the average guy who gets to play twice a month, at best. The guy who is easily breaking a hundred, ninety and eighty will take care of himself.

Good job, Lihu. Good stats always make for better understanding.

Peace.

[Jeremie Boop]

42 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Got this in the mailbox and felt I had to come back and praise this post. Nicely done. If the USGA had done the sensible thing and leave the rules as they are for "tournament" play--and for anyone who wants the stiffest of tests--and done separate rules for the rest of us, we could have addressed this. Marketing, I think, or media, is the only way to get people to play their game and not the pro game. "Tee it forward" didn't exactly get the word out.

Nobody told me that the red tees are ladies' tees. Nobody ever explained to me that par is meant for the expert golfer. I heard yesterday that only 3% of golfers ever break 80. From the stats, with my driver speed, the best I can reasonably hope for is low 80's. Maybe I can do better if I have a great short game, but that's just me. Not sure how dedicated the average golfer is to developing their game. The rules, and the marketing of the game, need to focus on what the average 50 year of male needs out on the course. If it's more beer, then that's okay, too.

My point has been in all of my posts is make it easier for the average guy who gets to play twice a month, at best. The guy who is easily breaking a hundred, ninety and eighty will take care of himself.

Good job, Lihu. Good stats always make for better understanding.

Peace.

I don't understand what you want. Do you want different rules so that your score is lower based on playing by those rules? Why? Everyone plays a course based on Par, if you are competing your score is adjusted for that competition based on your handicap so that you have a better chance against those who have a lower index. The average guy who plays twice a month probably already doesn't play by the rules and as such the "score" he is writing down is already lower than it should actually be. You can play by the set rules of golf or not when you are out there playing. Nobody cares what rules you play by unless you are competing. If you are competing it makes the most sense to play by the same set of rules that are already in place, not to play by some secondary set of rules. Even so, you run into this in a lot of leagues out there. Mine is really bad about implementing their own set of rules, allowing for free drops out of difficult lies, one stroke penalty and drop for out of bounds, free drops for a ball that "shouldn't be lost" etc etc. There are only 2 reasons why people would expect you to play exactly to the rules and they are related to each other. First, you are expected to play by the rules when you are recording for handicap, and even then they allow for a different score to be carded for a hole not played by the rules so that you can still post the round. Second, you are expected to play by the rules if you are in a competition. If neither of those things apply to you, nobody cares what "rules" you play by. These things have been mentioned several times already. Bifurcation of the rules makes absolutely no sense and only serves to make things more complicated, which is something they are trying to eliminate as best they can.

[colin007]

14 hours ago, CCC said:

If I could hit my 7 iron 150 yards (carry). I would consider myself way above "average" - for a weekend golfer.

agreed. very few of the guys i see at local courses can do that.

[gatsby47]

Wow.  Quite the topic.  I read the postings and found it all quite interesting.  You do remember that golf is the only sport that a rank amateur can play on the same surface as the pro ( if you have the coin and the pull).  You aren't getting on the field at Yankee Stadium, nor at Gillete in Foxboro, nor at the Bell Centre in Montreal.  They are playing a game that only the skilled and the elite determined can play and that is only for a finite period in a  lifetime. But golf is played for a lifetime and you don't have to get better at It to continue playing.  What  a professional golfer does on a designated course bears little resemblance to what a single digit handicapper can do.  And they are the elite of the common masses who thoroughly enjoy playing and never come close to par.  So What?  No golf ball is going to change that.  No magic club is going to make you hit better. Titleist lies to us every year about the "NEW" Pro V and Vx.  Really?  If they give me a case, I will say the same stupid things that the other amateurs say for them about letting them play their best. But I can find a brand new Noodle and have just as much success with it.  I play now from tees ( Red Forward) and enjoy the chance to put a ball on the green in regulation.  I run a Seniors League at my course and now that the STIGMA of ladies tees  labeling is now noting Forward tees,  I have close to 60% of my League of 110 playing Forward and I expect it to go higher this year.  I really hope that the governing bodies of golf modernize some of the old fogie ideas in terms of hazard marking and fixing green marks and dropping. Leave the equipment.  Leave the Balls.  Let them hype all they want.  It is mostly bubblegum for the brain while waiting for the commercials to end and the golf broadcast to come back on.  I say enjoy pro golf watching but never confuse it with what the Vast majority do when they get their chance to play golf.  It is the real deal

[Blackjack Don]

+1

[zero]

On 3/6/2017 at 8:32 PM, Lihu said:

Somehow, I don't think a PGA pro is playing the same par 4 that we are. Theirs can go as long as 530+ yards at sea level, while really good amateurs play from less than 475 yards at sea level.

The ones you or I should be playing are on average sub-400 yards or about 391 yards.

http://blog.trackmangolf.com/performance-of-the-average-male-amateur/

Tee	Average Par 4 Length	Approach After Actual (226 yards)	Approach After Optimal (255 yards)
Black	450 yards	224 yards	195 yards
Blue	428 yards	202 yards	173 yards
White	410 yards	184 yards	155 yards
Green	391 yards	165 yards	136 yards
Red	328 yards	102 yards	73 yards

Take the 450 yard estimate and subtract from 390 and you get 60 yards difference or about 6 clubs difference on the approach. Even at 430 yards, there's 4 clubs difference.

So, if you play a PGA length course you might need an additional stroke or two per hole, but if you play from the proper tees you could play for par.

 

That's above average for sure, carry a 7i 150 is in the 98mph driver SS range which translates roughly to a 6 handicap.

 

 

Where do these charts come from? I'm a hack, mid 80s-90s. I know my distances very well, and here they match the 106 column but there's zero chance I have that SS. Last year on Golfsmith monitors I think it was 85 avg. I know you're going to say it's math and physics, just sayin', for me that doesn't add up!

I'm not touching the rest of this thread with a 10 foot ball retriever :)

[1badbadger]

40 minutes ago, zero said:

Where do these charts come from? I'm a hack, mid 80s-90s. I know my distances very well, and here they match the 106 column but there's zero chance I have that SS. Last year on Golfsmith monitors I think it was 85 avg. I know you're going to say it's math and physics, just sayin', for me that doesn't add up!

I'm not touching the rest of this thread with a 10 foot ball retriever :)

I'm not sure where he sourced those charts from Zero, but to answer your question there are 2 possibilities...if you know your distances very well and they match the 106 mph column, then your swing speed is much higher than you think it is.  If your swing speed is actually about 85 mph, then you're not hitting the ball those distances.  It kind of does boil down to math and physics...it's simply not possible to hit the ball 270-275 on average with an 85 mph swing speed. It would be more like 220-230 yds.

[Lihu]

12 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

I'm not sure where he sourced those charts from Zero, but to answer your question there are 2 possibilities...if you know your distances very well and they match the 106 mph column, then your swing speed is much higher than you think it is.  If your swing speed is actually about 85 mph, then you're not hitting the ball those distances.  It kind of does boil down to math and physics...it's simply not possible to hit the ball 270-275 on average with an 85 mph swing speed. It would be more like 220-230 yds.

That's only if you hit the center with perfect face to path alignment. . .

 

1 hour ago, zero said:

Where do these charts come from? I'm a hack, mid 80s-90s. I know my distances very well, and here they match the 106 column but there's zero chance I have that SS. Last year on Golfsmith monitors I think it was 85 avg. I know you're going to say it's math and physics, just sayin', for me that doesn't add up!

I'm not touching the rest of this thread with a 10 foot ball retriever :)

Those are pretty accurate as they use GC2. I would put you in the 85mph column somewhere between 90 and 80.

If your distances are really in the 106 column you should be driving greens with regularity, or you're at 15,000 feet elevation or something?

[zero]

58 minutes ago, Lihu said:

That's only if you hit the center with perfect face to path alignment. . .

 

Those are pretty accurate as they use GC2. I would put you in the 85mph column somewhere between 90 and 80.

If your distances are really in the 106 column you should be driving greens with regularity, or you're at 15,000 feet elevation or something?

My irons are the 106 column, hybrid and up in the 100 column. I'll find out soon enough what's going on, GolfTec initial appointment soon!

[iacas]

On 3/7/2017 at 11:33 AM, Blackjack Don said:

If the USGA had done the sensible thing and leave the rules as they are for "tournament" play--and for anyone who wants the stiffest of tests--and done separate rules for the rest of us, we could have addressed this.

I don't think that's at all the "sensible" thing. It would do little but create blurry lines - when does one set of rules come into play versus the other?

The average golfer already ignores the rules when they're out there just hacking the ball around having fun. I've given my kid mulligans when she's practicing. Etc.

The Rules also benefit players fairly often. That's something you consistently ignore. The whole idea that the Rules only make the game "more difficult" or raise scores is a non-starter… they define the game. To do anything else is to play, effectively, a different game.

And as everyone keeps telling you… we're fine with that. Do what you want to have fun. Most people do that anyway.

On 3/7/2017 at 11:33 AM, Blackjack Don said:

Nobody ever explained to me that par is meant for the expert golfer.

It's the definition of "par" - the score the "expert" golfer is expected to make on a hole.

On 3/7/2017 at 11:33 AM, Blackjack Don said:

From the stats, with my driver speed, the best I can reasonably hope for is low 80's. Maybe I can do better if I have a great short game, but that's just me.

So? What's wrong with that? You're older.

On 3/7/2017 at 11:33 AM, Blackjack Don said:

Not sure how dedicated the average golfer is to developing their game.

They're not dedicated at all.

On 3/7/2017 at 11:33 AM, Blackjack Don said:

The rules, and the marketing of the game, need to focus on what the average 50 year of male needs out on the course.

Completely disagree that the Rules "need to focus on" that sort of stuff.

That's not at all the purpose of the Rules of the sport.

[freshmanUTA]

On 3/6/2017 at 10:32 PM, Lihu said:

What do the numbers at the top correspond to? The 60, 70, 80, 90, etc.? Is it the average Swing Speed?