Pay By The Hour Green Fee

[CarlSpackler]

9 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

There are all sorts that show up at the munis I play (and @CarlSpackler used to before he stopped slumming it). As we know, everyone is as fast as the slowest group on the course. That slowest group isn't always just inconsiderate. They are often very bad and/or very ignorant. The carrot of reducing their greens fee might motivate them, but someone will always be gumming up the works.

In my earlier post, I allowed for the idea that the per-hour plan may work better at higher-end courses. You know. Places with starters, rangers and the kind of places where hackers like me never tread. If freaking Kittyhawk tried it, you'd have total bedlam. 

One other thing that occurred to me as unattractive. The very last thing I want to do after 18 holes is pay. Paying first suits me better. Also knowing the home course's clientele, you'd have a ton of people just walk off without paying. They already walk on without paying often enough.

Or they would be too drunk to remember. 

[Vinny Cap]

I can see this being a good thing and a total flop.

With a good starter, many qualified rangers and some kind of monitor in the cart it would work.  Of course ready golf, not searching for balls for a long time and being ready to putt would be mandatory.

Now for the flops.... I could see people playing multiple balls saying "I'm paying for this hole so I am gonna get it right!"  You could see some yelling, maybe some fist-a-cuffs and the cops involved once in a while.

I saw a few people post that they pay under $25 for a round!  Huh?  Is it a decent course?  That is pretty cheap!  Is it off hours or some other stipulation?

[Braivo]

13 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

The twilight rate at my house course kinda works like this. I pay a set rate to play until dark. If I play fast, I play more holes for the same price. I love it.  In fact, I almost exclusively play at this time of the day.

I grew up learning to play on a course that charged $6 after 6pm to play as many holes as you could. We would make it a challenge to see how many we could get in before dark. In June we could get 14-15 holes in. Good times. 

[Patch]

I am incline not to let some other players, while playing at their own pace, (faster to slower) dictate how much I would pay for a round.

If I paid for 4 hours, as did the guy in front of me, and he played in 4.5 hours, even though he paid the extra, why should I be responsible for his slowness, or what ever reason caused him to pay for his over time? What about the group in front who may have paid for 5 hours, and our group who paid for 4 hours? The golf course would have to come up with a remedy fthat scenario. 

What about slow downs due to weather issues? Who absorbs that extra time? What about injuries that require stoppge of play? 

No, not a fan of this. Based on what I have read so far, this plan needs some more work.

I could also see golf courses using overtime pay to their own advantage, revenue wise. 

[paininthenuts]

It's daft in so many ways I can't bring myself to discuss it

[MrDC]

I agree, there's no reason to even talk about it, silly idea, never gonna happen, they don't need to cater to those that can't even play 9 and it won't fix slow play.

Edited January 12, 2017 by MrDC

[Abu3baid]

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

No it doesn't. It doesn't improve pace of play because you still set a fixed fee, not a fee fixed to the pace of play. 

$54 / $18 = $3 a hole

$54 / 24 = $2.25 every ten minutes of play

Group finishes in 4 hours and 30 minutes on the first scenario. They pay $54

Group finishes in 4 hours and 30 minutes on the 2nd scenario. They pay $60.75. 

What's that's 24 number you're dividing by?

Anyway, so you really think that $6.75 is what's going to make the difference?  I don't.

When you set a play by the clock you willl have so many issues to think about it won't be funny.

when does the clock start?  If starts after they tee off then who keeps track?  If it's at the check in then what happens if they go to the tee and the group hasn't teed of?  I can go on.

when does the clock stop?  Same as above.  Is it after you putt out on the 18th?  Is it when one of the group members runs to the checkout?  Does the whole group have to run to the check out?

notice, I haven you started asking questions beyond the checkin/checkout.

the article didn't give any details on the logistics of how they plan on doing i, so at this point everyone is just guessing.  I guess this conversation probably won't go anywhere.  Oh well.

 

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

What's that's 24 number you're dividing by?

4 hours x 60 minutes = 240 minutes / 10 = 24 ten minute intervals. 

4 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Anyway, so you really think that $6.75 is what's going to make the difference?  I don't.

Its because you failed to grasp the concept that the article is trying an economical view at speeding up play. The reason it could work is because the cost is now fixed to duration, not just a flat fee. 

It's more about trying to find a way to solve pace of play, not just a new way to pay. 

5 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

When you set a play by the clock you willl have so many issues to think about it won't be funny.

So, you fail to even consider thinking outside the box. You just jump on the pessimistic bandwagon. 

6 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

when does the clock start?  If starts after they tee off then who keeps track?  If it's at the check in then what happens if they go to the tee and the group hasn't teed of?  I can go on.

No, you can determine everything at the end of the round. The time starts at your tee time, adjusted for any delays or letting people start early. The starter can easily mark down when the group got to the first tee. 

8 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

when does the clock stop?  Same as above.  Is it after you putt out on the 18th?  Is it when one of the group members runs to the checkout?  Does the whole group have to run to the check out?

When you go into pay afterwards. That is simple enough. 

It probably depends on how you want to pay. By group or by person? Typically golfers pay individually anyways. So it doesn't matter if you pay before or after in the same way. 

10 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

]the article didn't give any details on the logistics of how they plan on doing i, so at this point everyone is just guessing.  I guess this conversation probably won't go anywhere.  Oh well.

Because it's called a new idea. There are going to be issues and they could be resolved. At least someone is trying something new. 

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, MrDC said:

I agree, there's no reason to even talk about it, silly idea, never gonna happen, they don't need to cater to those that can't even play 9 and it won't fix slow play.

But ...  it IS happening.  This isn't just some crackpot theory that somebody here is floating, it's a real pricing structure that a real course in Missouri is actually implementing this season per the article in the OP.

[nevets88]

15 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

But ...  it IS happening.  This isn't just some crackpot theory that somebody here is floating, it's a real pricing structure that a real course in Missouri is actually implementing this season per the article in the OP.

In a way, it's been happening for awhile. People institute their own "policy" by walking off early because play is too slow. I've played Bethpage Black and have witnessed golfers who've paid the full green fee and walked off before the turn, one guy even on the 5th hole (maybe he got a refund, but I'm not sure you get refunds from the state for slow play.) It's not uncommon that people leave at holes 13 or onward playing at Bethpage. I've paid for 18 and walk off after the turn or 9 and walk off after 3 or so holes a nontrivial number of times. Maybe I'm getting old and ornery (not ADD) and I just don't have the patience to wait 5-10 minutes a hole sometimes and life is busy, plus leaving at peak traffic will add 1/2 - 1 hour to driving time. 

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, nevets88 said:

In a way, it's been happening for awhile. People institute their own "policy" by walking off early because play is too slow. I've played Bethpage Black and have witnessed golfers who've paid the full green fee and walked off well before the turn, one guy even on the 5th hole (maybe he got a refund, but I'm not sure you get refunds from the state for slow play.) I pay for 18 and walk off after the turn or 9 and walk off after 3 or so holes. I'm getting old and ornery (not ADD) and I just don't have the patience to wait 5-10 minutes a hole sometimes and life is busy, plus leaving at peak traffic will add 1/2 - 1 hour to driving time. 

I'm not sure that I see how walking off partway through a round, after paying full price, has anything to do with the Missouri club's new "pay by the hour" pricing structure.  I said before, their new pricing doesn't appeal to me, but its an interesting experiment, one with at least the potential to encourage people to play faster in order to get more for their money.

[Abu3baid]

58 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

4 hours x 60 minutes = 240 minutes / 10 = 24 ten minute intervals. 

Its because you failed to grasp the concept that the article is trying an economical view at speeding up play. The reason it could work is because the cost is now fixed to duration, not just a flat fee. 

It's more about trying to find a way to solve pace of play, not just a new way to pay. 

So, you fail to even consider thinking outside the box. You just jump on the pessimistic bandwagon. 

No, you can determine everything at the end of the round. The time starts at your tee time, adjusted for any delays or letting people start early. The starter can easily mark down when the group got to the first tee. 

When you go into pay afterwards. That is simple enough. 

It probably depends on how you want to pay. By group or by person? Typically golfers pay individually anyways. So it doesn't matter if you pay before or after in the same way. 

Because it's called a new idea. There are going to be issues and they could be resolved. At least someone is trying something new. 

The thing is, this does nothing for slow play and I'm not sure why you think it does.   

Here is an example.  Group tees off, with 5 groups behind them.  The first group is on a 4:30 hour pace.  Guess what?  All the groups behind them are pretty much on a 4:30 hour pace.  The first group goes in and pays for that extra 30 minutes, but the other 5 groups behind them refuse because they were all delayed by the group ahead of them.

You probably already know this, but one slow group will kill the pace of place for all the groups teeing behind them.  You did nothing when you charged by the hour, by the hole or by the round.

Now, the groups behind can easily walk off at 4:00 before they finish 18, but then again, might as well make it a pay by hole played rather than time at that point.

I'm not being pessimistic as you mentioned, I'm questioning the idea and testing its legitimacy.  Not every new idea is a good one, so let us please not pretend that they just solved the pace of place issue.

[14ledo81]

3 hours ago, Braivo said:

I grew up learning to play on a course that charged $6 after 6pm to play as many holes as you could. We would make it a challenge to see how many we could get in before dark. In June we could get 14-15 holes in. Good times. 

I pay $16 starting at 4pm.  For an extra $10, I can take a cart.

I have played as many as 45 holes before (from 4 to 930ish) while using a cart on a relatively empty course.

[Golfingdad]

1 minute ago, Abu3baid said:

The thing is, this does nothing for slow play and I'm not sure why you think it does.   

Here is an example.  Group tees off, with 5 groups behind them.  The first group is on a 4:30 hour pace.  Guess what?  All the groups behind them are pretty much on a 4:30 hour pace.  The first group goes in and pays for that extra 30 minutes, but the other 5 groups behind them refuse because they were all delayed by the group ahead of them.

You probably already know this, but one slow group will kill the pace of place for all the groups teeing behind them.  You did nothing when you charged by the hour, by the hole or by the round.

Now, the groups behind can easily walk off at 4:00 before they finish 18, but then again, might as well make it a pay by hole played rather than time at that point.

I'm not being pessimistic as you mentioned, I'm questioning the idea and testing its legitimacy.  Not every new idea is a good one, so let us please not pretend that they just solved the pace of place issue.

You are just being pessimistic and you are doing the opposite of testing its legitimacy.  You're just flat-out saying it won't work with no evidence at all.  How do you know?  How does anybody know if they don't try?  Why do you automatically assume that Group A is going to play at a 4:30 pace?  They know they are paying by the hour as well.  Maybe they will be slow, maybe they won't.  Maybe the course learns that this happens and adjusts, like I mentioned above, to allow for it (by "fining" the slow group the extra money that the groups behind them would have had to pay).  Nobody knows the answers to any of these questions and nobody is going to know until they give it a shot.

What do they have to lose by trying something different?

[saevel25]

9 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

I'm not being pessimistic as you mentioned, I'm questioning the idea and testing its legitimacy.  Not every new idea is a good one, so let us please not pretend that they just solved the pace of place issue.

No you are downright denying the idea of it. Not questioning it. There is a difference. One is constructive the other isn't. 

No one said it did solve it. Changes to the norm have to start somewhere. They tend to have hiccups along the way. 

[paininthenuts]

It is such a crazy idea.So what happens if you get stuck behind someone who is slow, and can you ever imagine someone letting somebody else through ?

[JxQx]

9 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

It is such a crazy idea.So what happens if you get stuck behind someone who is slow, and can you ever imagine someone letting somebody else through ?

People would still let others play through not everyone is an asshole, plus that's what the rangers are supposed to assist in. If they are going to use this sort of system they would have to have rangers.

[14ledo81]

16 minutes ago, JxQx said:

People would still let others play through not everyone is an asshole, plus that's what the rangers are supposed to assist in. If they are going to use this sort of system they would have to have rangers.

 

I don't think it would even come down to being an asshole.  I don't want to let someone through so they can pay less while I pay more.