HANDICAPS. Ability vs Scores

[paininthenuts]

Here is a question for you all.

On a weekly basis my golfing friends and I argue about my handicap, in fact we stopped playing for money a few months ago because of these discussions. My friends feel I should have a lower handicap, and if the club won't give me one they think I should play off of a social handicap. Firstly, I don't believe in social handicaps, as it's my belief that if the handicap system is working correctly a player only needs one handicap, and that shouldn't be played around with in any way what so ever. I accept that when I am playing well I can smash my handicap, I also accept that my swing is probably better than most people with my handicap of 21, and I admit that I quite often play better shots than someone with my handicap would normally play. However, the fact is that I am totally inconsistent, and still prone to playing a lot of costly shots, and thus my average score reflects my current handicap. The fact is that my friends believe my handicap should reflect my ability on a good day, along with my potential, and I believe it should reflect what is written on the score cards. 

So what do you think ?

[boogielicious]

26 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Here is a question for you all.

On a weekly basis my golfing friends and I argue about my handicap, in fact we stopped playing for money a few months ago because of these discussions. My friends feel I should have a lower handicap, and if the club won't give me one they think I should play off of a social handicap. Firstly, I don't believe in social handicaps, as it's my belief that if the handicap system is working correctly a player only needs one handicap, and that shouldn't be played around with in any way what so ever. I accept that when I am playing well I can smash my handicap, I also accept that my swing is probably better than most people with my handicap of 21, and I admit that I quite often play better shots than someone with my handicap would normally play. However, the fact is that I am totally inconsistent, and still prone to playing a lot of costly shots, and thus my average score reflects my current handicap. The fact is that my friends believe my handicap should reflect my ability on a good day, along with my potential, and I believe it should reflect what is written on the score cards. 

So what do you think ?

How often do you post for HC? I know the rules are different in the UK.

My golf friends don't keep official HC, but they keep a running HC calculation. We play in a league together and on Tuesdays by ourselves. When we play on Tuesdays, I use my official HC and play against their calculated. In the league, we use the league quota system, which is based on a modified Stableford.

I still post both those scores for HC, which I can under USGA.

[bkuehn1952]

28 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

So what do you think ?

If you are properly recording all your eligible scores, you are good as far as I am concerned. No longer playing for money is a good idea as it was creating problems.

Maybe the problem lies with your friends' handicaps.  Are they accurate?

[RH31]

1 hour ago, paininthenuts said:

 

So what do you think ?

 

I think,

If you don't post enough scores to establish a handicap you should accept the handicap your group assigns you....or play with others.

A handicap should be the average of your 10 best out of your last 20.

Inconsistent golfers(like me) have to accept the fact that they aren't going to be competitive day in and day out.

The type of "game" the group plays has a lot to do with who is competitive and who isn't.

[dennyjones]

Does the handicap system in the UK have ESC?   

[David in FL]

A couple of questions to get a better feel for your situation...

What game do you play with your buddies?  Stroke play, or match play?  What handicaps do they carry?  Is there a big disparity between yours and theirs?

Your comp rounds are generally Stableford, right?  How often do you play handicap comps?  Do your buddies play that often, or more/less.  Do you play in comps with your buddies?

 

55 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

Does the handicap system in the UK have ESC?   

Yes.  Double bogey.

1 hour ago, RH31 said:

 

I think,

If you don't post enough scores to establish a handicap you should accept the handicap your group assigns you....or play with others.

A handicap should be the average of your 10 best out of your last 20.

Inconsistent golfers(like me) have to accept the fact that they aren't going to be competitive day in and day out.

The type of "game" the group plays has a lot to do with who is competitive and who isn't.

 

For those interested...

http://www.popeofslope.com/scotland/usscothandicaps.html

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

Here is a question for you all.

On a weekly basis my golfing friends and I argue about my handicap, in fact we stopped playing for money a few months ago because of these discussions. My friends feel I should have a lower handicap, and if the club won't give me one they think I should play off of a social handicap. Firstly, I don't believe in social handicaps, as it's my belief that if the handicap system is working correctly a player only needs one handicap, and that shouldn't be played around with in any way what so ever. I accept that when I am playing well I can smash my handicap, I also accept that my swing is probably better than most people with my handicap of 21, and I admit that I quite often play better shots than someone with my handicap would normally play. However, the fact is that I am totally inconsistent, and still prone to playing a lot of costly shots, and thus my average score reflects my current handicap. The fact is that my friends believe my handicap should reflect my ability on a good day, along with my potential, and I believe it should reflect what is written on the score cards. 

So what do you think ?

First of all, this is a good problem to have.

Secondly, you should keep a social handicap, which could be based upon a USGA score? You take your 10 best differential scores out of 20 (score which is adjusted for the course difficulty) and average.

Playing for money is a tricky thing because if you're making 16 near greens with 6 GIR and scoring like a 20 handicap, most people would think you are pretending to putt badly until the stakes are increased.

 

1 hour ago, RH31 said:

 

I think,

If you don't post enough scores to establish a handicap you should accept the handicap your group assigns you....or play with others.

A handicap should be the average of your 10 best out of your last 20.

Inconsistent golfers(like me) have to accept the fact that they aren't going to be competitive day in and day out.

The type of "game" the group plays has a lot to do with who is competitive and who isn't.

Agree, except we should elaborate on the details. Otherwise, if he's shooting 20 over on a difficult course he'd have a few strokes extra to play with.

[David in FL]

3 minutes ago, Lihu said:

First of all, this is a good problem to have.

Secondly, you should keep a social handicap, which could be based upon a USGA score? You take your 10 best differential scores out of 20 (score which is adjusted for the course difficulty) and average.

Playing for money is a tricky thing because if you're making 16 near greens with 6 GIR and scoring like a 20 handicap, most people would think you are pretending to putt badly until the stakes are increased.

 

Agree, except we should elaborate on the details. Otherwise, if he's shooting 20 over on a difficult course he'd have a few strokes extra to play with.

Everyone please note, the OP is in the UK and is subject to the CONGU handicap system.  See my link above to understand the significant differences between that and the USGA system.

The USGA and R&A are currently working toward a more universal system, but we aren't there yet.

[DaveP043]

3 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

My friends feel I should have a lower handicap, and if the club won't give me one they think I should play off of a social handicap. ......... The fact is that my friends believe my handicap should reflect my ability on a good day, along with my potential, and I believe it should reflect what is written on the score cards. 

So what do you think ?

I'm not sure what a "social handicap" is in your system, I'm not sure that any of us from the States really do.  I'm guessing that its a handicap based on all of your rounds, as opposed to your CONGU handicap which is based primarily on competition rounds.  If I remember right, you've mentioned that you don't often play as well in competitions as you do on more casual occasions.  My suggestion is that if they want you to play off a social handicap, they should do the same.  The same rules should apply to everyone, whether they're rules for playing golf, or handicap rules.

[Lihu]

16 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Everyone please note, the OP is in the UK and is subject to the CONGU handicap system.  See my link above to understand the significant differences between that and the USGA system.

The USGA and R&A are currently working toward a more universal system, but we aren't there yet.

Yes, from the many Brexit posts we exchanged, I did actually figure that out. 

This is why I suggested a social handicap, and I agree with @DaveP043 that everyone should use the same handicap.

[Club Rat]

3 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

I don't believe in social handicaps

I have friends when we play a friendly $5 Nassau, the strokes would adjust on the back. Whoever wins the front, the loser would gain a stroke or two.
Whoever wins that day, buys the first round of beers, and also the loser gains a stroke the next time we play..

I also have another friend when we play, we adjust from a previous round together every time.

And with another group of guys we are all about the same handicap, so we simply play scratch.
I got tired of all their whining and crying about one or two strokes and put a stop to it.
I declared we are all mens with reasonable size gonads and to man up and just play golf and have fun....

Usually the winners bar tab cost them twice more than they would win.... 

I also remind them I was getting off cheap for what their Momma pays me to be their friends when I win....

Everyone always remember, It's just a game, win or lose, having fun is priceless...

[NJpatbee]

53 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Everyone please note, the OP is in the UK and is subject to the CONGU handicap system.  See my link above to understand the significant differences between that and the USGA system.

The USGA and R&A are currently working toward a more universal system, but we aren't there yet.

Based on the link provided describing the CONGU system I would prefer that the USGA not try to merge the two systems.  The USGA system is much more accurate in reflecting a golfer's potential with a much greater sampling of scores and a good course difficulty and slop rating, and in my opinion a more accurate ESC system. 

[mcanadiens]

I don't know anything about CONGU. What I do know is that I'll never bet money with any of the guys I play with. First, my game is to crappy to bet on in the first place. Second, most of the guys I know cheat their butts off. 

Funny the most honest golfer I know doesn't even drink, so there goes a beer bet.

Ah well.

[Lihu]

9 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

I don't know anything about CONGU. What I do know is that I'll never bet money with any of the guys I play with. First, my game is to crappy to bet on in the first place. Second, most of the guys I know cheat their butts off. 

Funny the most honest golfer I know doesn't even drink, so there goes a beer bet.

Ah well.

In this case, you should play for money. Think about all those penalty strokes you get in your favor every time you catch them? Play them one at a time so you can carefully watch them, though.

[David in FL]

12 minutes ago, NJpatbee said:

Based on the link provided describing the CONGU system I would prefer that the USGA not try to merge the two systems.  The USGA system is much more accurate in reflecting a golfer's potential with a much greater sampling of scores and a good course difficulty and slop rating, and in my opinion a more accurate ESC system. 

Not so much a merge, as simply developing a common system that is used worldwide. 

[DaveP043]

24 minutes ago, NJpatbee said:

Based on the link provided describing the CONGU system I would prefer that the USGA not try to merge the two systems.  The USGA system is much more accurate in reflecting a golfer's potential with a much greater sampling of scores and a good course difficulty and slop rating, and in my opinion a more accurate ESC system. 

The USGA isn't the only one involved.  I researched this a little while back, and I think I found at least 6 different handicap systems used worldwide, so we're talking about six different governing bodies working together.  Each system has some positive things, each one has drawbacks.  The primary issue I see with these multiple systems is that amateurs from different parts of the world can't fairly compete against each other, because their handicaps aren't directly comparable.  That problem would diminish great if there was a single system worldwide.  Rather than go too far into it here, I'd suggest you resurrect this thread for further discussion:

 

[RH31]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm not sure what a "social handicap" is in your system, I'm not sure that any of us from the States really do.  I'm guessing that its a handicap based on all of your rounds, as opposed to your CONGU handicap which is based primarily on competition rounds.  If I remember right, you've mentioned that you don't often play as well in competitions as you do on more casual occasions.  My suggestion is that if they want you to play off a social handicap, they should do the same.  The same rules should apply to everyone, whether they're rules for playing golf, or handicap rules.

I know what is in the groups I play in. If you are a 10hcp, and shoot less than 6-7 over and win most of the money on multiple occasions, you will be an 8 hcp when you play with the group. If you keep shooting lower scores and winning most of the money they'll cut your social or group handicap another shot or two.

[NJpatbee]

40 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The USGA isn't the only one involved.  I researched this a little while back, and I think I found at least 6 different handicap systems used worldwide, so we're talking about six different governing bodies working together.  Each system has some positive things, each one has drawbacks.  The primary issue I see with these multiple systems is that amateurs from different parts of the world can't fairly compete against each other, because their handicaps aren't directly comparable.  That problem would diminish great if there was a single system worldwide.  Rather than go too far into it here, I'd suggest you resurrect this thread for further discussion:

 

Thanks, I will check it out.