Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Hatchman said:

Here is info from R&A's site.   They also apply or advise golfers infraction on the spot as I was suggesting here.  Should they be in position or wait for the phone call in?  It's always fun to bust the perp later.  If she was incorrect, remind her.

That page talked about players moving their putter to the side. The RO would have had little reason to really pay much attention to a tap-in. And again, ROs are not there to call every penalty. The ultimate responsibility lies with… the player.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

iacas said:

My daughter got into a playoff because they added her score up wrong last year, and we noticed before the announcement was made. She played off, won, and then won the entire tournament. Sometimes things work the other direction, too.

Thats cheating.

Uhhh, no, it's not.

The "committee" added up her score wrong. We alerted the "committee" (Jay) before he announced the results. She tied the other girl, and they played off for the last spot. My daughter won it, then won the entire match play tournament after that.

Not one little bit of that is cheating.

And please quote properly: https://thesandtrap.com/how-to/quote-posts .

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

I am not even a fan at all of Lexi or the LPGA.  But the idea that rule technicalities are more important than the spirit of the game is what's at stake here.

Breaching the rules is against the spirit of the game.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

I think my solution is a good one.  No penalties can be levied against a player after tournament officials have accepted the card period.

Your "solution" has been shot down a few times. What if a player gets a six on a hole but their marker writes down five? If the official in the scoring tent - who has no idea what the player shot - accepts the card, then that blatant violation of the rules just gets ignored and swept under the rug? No thank you.

The player has a few responsibilities here. Play under the rules. Sign to attest that the scores written down are correct.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

This is a relatively new problem now with hd and DVr and new technology.  The rules need amendment to prevent this type of situation.

Not really. Craig Stadler was subject to a penalty in 1987 because a viewer called in.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

IMO they need to disallow call ins emails entirely also to further simplify matters.

It was email. What if the call comes from Mike Davis? A fellow competitor? An off-duty rules official who worked that morning?

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Again for those who disagree what does signing the card after each round mean if it is under review?

It's not under review. Signing the card is how the player signifies that they attest to the score they shot. If they're later shown to be wrong, they are subject to further penalty. It's not "under review."

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

The rules need modification because of the relatively new technology.

Does "relatively new technology" go back to 1987?

1 hour ago, Kingkat1954 said:

There should be a "time limit" on when rules can be called.

There is. It's when the competition is closed.

1 hour ago, Kingkat1954 said:

Also......................PGA / LPGA Tour should stop taking messages from outside the tournament about rules infractions.

No thanks.

1 hour ago, Kingkat1954 said:

I guess "score" doesn't really matter does it? I mean anyone can call a penalty, and adjust your score? Sad!

What's sad? It's like you're forgetting that Lexi broke the rules, and failed in her responsibilities.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

At the time the card was turned in the score was correct.

No it wasn't. She incurred the penalty as soon as she played from the wrong place.

1 hour ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

Yea, it's pretty ridiculous that it works out that way.  Obviously if a player doesn't know about a penalty before signing, it's adding insult to injury at that point

Players are responsible for knowing the rules and abiding by them.

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

I think even Iacas is missing the point here..or at least my point. I don't care If Lexi took a foot wedge to improve her lie....we can rely on player's integrit, fellow player, caddies or rules officials. A VIEWER AT HOME SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CALL/Email/send a carrier pigeon to announce a penalty. Period. Gees.

I am not missing that point at all.

I simply disagree.

The fact is Lexi violated the rules, and once the Committee was made aware of the possibility, they had to act.

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

All this nonsense about innocent or not....rubbish...makes no difference to the point at hand which is...NO HOME VIEWERS MAKING CALLS. Crickey!

I'm not sure why you think people are missing that point.

I'm not. I simply don't agree with you that it's wrong. The USGA/R&A must obviously not, either. This has been a topic for 30+ years. Nothing's ever changed about it. The "modernized" rules didn't address this, either. What's that say…?

59 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I have bitten my tongue all day because I knew I would be in the extreme minority. I even texted @iacas few hours ago where I mentioned it looks way too blatant to be unintentional. The curious depression in front of the ball doesn't help ease the suspicion.

FWIW, I still don't think she did anything intentionally. I think she just brain farted.

59 minutes ago, Shorty said:

But why? If you were the only one who saw another player drop a ball through his pants you said nothing and he went on to win a tournament would you think that the moment he signed his card ethics and morals no longer apply? 

They won't be able to answer that question, really… they're hung up on the fact that "some [insert a bunch of insults] person sitting at home" was able to help get the tournament closer to the truth than it was prior to their email/call.

46 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Come on people the rules are not there to take advantage of they are there to protect the integrity of the game.

Lexi violated the rules. What exactly about not penalizing her at all is "protecting the integrity of the game"?

46 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

"my kid won because of math error"  "things go both ways" "luckily the rules allowed it"

WHAT KIND OF PERSON THINKS THIS IS OK?

Huh?

They added her score up wrong. She tied for the last spot, and was entitled to play off for it. We noticed before the results were announced, and she was allowed to play off.

Who thinks that's wrong? Nobody.

You're way out of bounds at this point @Jack Watson, or you severely misunderstand the situation I discussed.

Generally speaking… knowing the rules can often help you out, too.

28 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Look at it this way.

by giving four penalties instead of two they are implying she cheated.  If she cheated she should be disqualified.

No they aren't. If they thought she cheated - i.e. did it intentionally - they'd have likely DQed her.

22 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

@iacas Let me ask this, because I honestly don't know the answer and have never thought of the possibility before...

If the violation had happened in rounds 1 or 2, but wasn't discovered until half-way through Sunday's round, what if the penalty strokes were enough to cause her to miss the cut had they been applied prior to the start of Saturday's round?

The player MCs. The penalty is applied to their previous round's score.

22 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

You see what I'm saying?  The penalty strokes are added to the score of the round when the breach occurred, so if the player had made the cut by 1, 2, or 3 shots and was playing the weekend, then the violation was discovered and the player is popped with 4 penalty shots to a pre-cut round, what happens?

They're MCed. Pretty simple.

17 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I don't know for sure when the LPGA got the e-mail, but did hear on the radio that it was well before Thompson teed off.

They said they got the email while she was on the 7th hole, and they were set to alert her during her play of the 12th.

16 minutes ago, Typhoon92 said:

Why is golf the only sport where you can call in for the officials to review things?  Anyone else find this odd?

Golf is the only sport (not quite, but for the most part) where players are tasked with following the rules themselves.

16 minutes ago, Typhoon92 said:

In other professional sports, the minute there is notice of an infraction possibly resulting in a penalty, all play is stopped so a decision is made.  Why don't they do that in golf?

Because other sports have referees and players trying to get away with as much as possible.

8 minutes ago, Typhoon92 said:

I agree, each round should be separate.  What would have happened if the infraction was on Sunday?  Given the swiftness of the governing bodies, it would have  have been 5 pm on Monday nite when the tournament was over that they came to a decision?.

Read the rules. There's a cut-off. It's the close of competition.

[iacas]

FWIW, Chamblee, Nobilo, and Duval all backed the LPGA and the fact that rulings are still open for play during the whole 72 holes. Earlier they discussed how golf can't be compared to other sports because in golf the player is responsible for knowing the rules and attesting to the proper score four times per tournament (with the people that played with them that day).

Nobilo didn't necessarily like the "extra" two shots, and said that if you didn't like a player you could wait until they signed their card to get them an extra couple of shots, but Duval countered that you can't assume the intentions of the person who calls in.

"Every major should have an official watching the TV" Rich Lerner said, and Chamblee said "yeah but they could still miss, and it's important to get it right."

[GolfLug]

I love how folks are going on and on and on about 'some loser in his underwear officiating/ruling needs to stop' nonsense... I guess the difference between reporting and officiating (ya' know, the process AFTER being reported i.e., assessing whether there was a breach or not, determining relevant penalty/penalties and applying, etc, ya, know everything AFTER the loser's phone-call/email...) seems to be lost on many a non-golfer and unfortunately, many experienced golfers too. Hell even TW twitted about how common folks shouldn't be wearing stripes or something to that effect..

I will agree how absurd it is compared to other sports after you find me a sport where there are 18 plus separate unrelated mini-events going on at any give moment...

Bravo!

[The Recreational Golfer]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

No they don't. The players are required and responsible for following the rules.

And when they don't?

[Dege]

Iacas,  Wow man, you REALLY need to get a life.  If you have time to pull all those quotes together, "crush" each comment with razor sharp reasoning, destroy any other view point other than your own.  And STILL be wrong, wow.  Hats off.  As for Lexi, I don't have time to figure it out now because I was watching a rerun of Arnold Palmer and when I email in what I saw Arnie do, the King's gonna have one less victory......

Edited April 4, 2017 by Dege

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I love how folks are going on and on and on about 'some loser in his underwear officiating/ruling needs to stop' nonsense... I guess the difference between reporting and officiating (ya' know, the process AFTER being reported i.e., assessing whether there was a breach or not, determining relevant penalty/penalties and applying, etc, ya, know everything AFTER the loser's phone-call/email...) seems to be lost on many a non-golfer and unfortunately, many experienced golfers too. Hell even TW twitted about how common folks shouldn't be wearing stripes or something to that effect..

I will agree how absurd it is compared to other sports after you find me a sport where there are 18 plus separate unrelated mini-events going on at any give moment...

More than 18. Some holes have multiple groups on it.

Chamblee et al pointed out that golf is not like other sports in that other sports have "one ball" and the referees can grab that ball and stop play. Not true in golf.

Just now, The Recreational Golfer said:

And when they don't?

They're penalized. Sometimes twice (for violating two rules).

Lexi violated 20-7 and 6-6d.

Just now, Dege said:

Iacas,  Wow man, you REALLY need to get a life.

Thanks. I'll take that under advisement. Golf, btw, is a lot of my life. I've spent time posting here (I type quickly, and read even more quickly, and know the rules pretty damn well). I played golf today, and spent time with my family watching Drive, Chip, and Putt.

But yeah, I'll get right on that… thanks for adding so much to the conversation with your insults.

Just now, Dege said:

As for Lexi, I don't have time to figure it out now because I was watching a rerun of Arnold Palmer and when I email in what I saw Arnie do, the King's gonna have one less victory......

The competition is closed, so no… he won't.

Simple.

[ChrisP]

When a football player fumbles, you don't have fans calling up saying, "Hey he fumbled. Review it!" That's what officials are for. Or when a tennis player foot faults and it's not called, a fan can't call up and say "Hey I have an angle that shows he foot faulted. Penalize him."

Personally, I hate people calling in and effecting the outcome of tournaments. If the officials don't catch it, then they don't catch it. Like someone mentioned above, they should have officials in tents checking this stuff themselves, not allowing fat men in their underwear calling in on Tiger Woods or Lexi Thompson or whoever and getting them penalized. This is something that needs to be handled by the officials of the game, not spectators from home.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited April 4, 2017 by ChrisP

[iacas]

 

Just now, ChrisP said:

When a football player fumbles, you don't have fans calling up saying, "Hey he fumbled. Review it!" That's what officials are for.

Comparisons to other sports are pointless.

Just now, ChrisP said:

Personally, I hate people calling in and effecting the outcome of tournaments. If the officials don't catch it, then they don't catch it. Like someone mentioned above, they should have officials in tents checking this stuff themselves, not allowing fat men in their underwear calling in on Tiger Woods or Lexi Thompson or whoever and getting them penalized. This is something that needs to be handled by the officials of the game, not spectators from home.

True to form… with the disparaging remarks about whomever emailed in about this one.

FWIW I was neither fat nor in my underwear on April 12, 2013.

[Jack Watson]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

That page talked about players moving their putter to the side. The RO would have had little reason to really pay much attention to a tap-in. And again, ROs are not there to call every penalty. The ultimate responsibility lies with… the player.

Uhhh, no, it's not.

The "committee" added up her score wrong. We alerted the "committee" (Jay) before he announced the results. She tied the other girl, and they played off for the last spot. My daughter won it, then won the entire match play tournament after that.

Not one little bit of that is cheating.

And please quote properly: https://thesandtrap.com/how-to/quote-posts .

Breaching the rules is against the spirit of the game.

Your "solution" has been shot down a few times. What if a player gets a six on a hole but their marker writes down five? If the official in the scoring tent - who has no idea what the player shot - accepts the card, then that blatant violation of the rules just gets ignored and swept under the rug? No thank you.

The player has a few responsibilities here. Play under the rules. Sign to attest that the scores written down are correct.

Not really. Craig Stadler was subject to a penalty in 1987 because a viewer called in.

It was email. What if the call comes from Mike Davis? A fellow competitor? An off-duty rules official who worked that morning?

It's not under review. Signing the card is how the player signifies that they attest to the score they shot. If they're later shown to be wrong, they are subject to further penalty. It's not "under review."

Does "relatively new technology" go back to 1987?

There is. It's when the competition is closed.

No thanks.

What's sad? It's like you're forgetting that Lexi broke the rules, and failed in her responsibilities.

No it wasn't. She incurred the penalty as soon as she played from the wrong place.

Players are responsible for knowing the rules and abiding by them.

I am not missing that point at all.

I simply disagree.

The fact is Lexi violated the rules, and once the Committee was made aware of the possibility, they had to act.

I'm not sure why you think people are missing that point.

I'm not. I simply don't agree with you that it's wrong. The USGA/R&A must obviously not, either. This has been a topic for 30+ years. Nothing's ever changed about it. The "modernized" rules didn't address this, either. What's that say…?

FWIW, I still don't think she did anything intentionally. I think she just brain farted.

They won't be able to answer that question, really… they're hung up on the fact that "some [insert a bunch of insults] person sitting at home" was able to help get the tournament closer to the truth than it was prior to their email/call.

Lexi violated the rules. What exactly about not penalizing her at all is "protecting the integrity of the game"?

Huh?

They added her score up wrong. She tied for the last spot, and was entitled to play off for it. We noticed before the results were announced, and she was allowed to play off.

Who thinks that's wrong? Nobody.

You're way out of bounds at this point @Jack Watson, or you severely misunderstand the situation I discussed.

Generally speaking… knowing the rules can often help you out, too.

No they aren't. If they thought she cheated - i.e. did it intentionally - they'd have likely DQed her.

The player MCs. The penalty is applied to their previous round's score.

They're MCed. Pretty simple.

They said they got the email while she was on the 7th hole, and they were set to alert her during her play of the 12th.

Golf is the only sport (not quite, but for the most part) where players are tasked with following the rules themselves.

Because other sports have referees and players trying to get away with as much as possible.

Read the rules. There's a cut-off. It's the close of competition.

The score absolutely is under review if it is not considered final at the time the player completes the round.

What if player says five and it's proved six or vice versa?

simple disqualification

no retroactive penalties

what if the players missed cut changes the cut line?  P,ayers who had every right to play were unable how is that right?

my simple solution has not been 'shot down' just summarily dismissed without reason.

You also said if they thought she signed with intent they could choose to disqualify her...

or assess a 2 penalty?

so the LPGA allows judgement based on interpretation of player intent?

This situation was terrible for the game.  My solution makes this result IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[Buckeyebowman]

Iacas, you made a great point when you said, "Other sports have referees (golf rules officials are NOT referees) and players trying to get away with as much as possible." It's the old saying, "if you're not cheating, you're not trying". What would happen to golf if that mindset were allowed to take hold.

Look, I, and my golf buds play fairly fast and loose with the rules when it's "just us". We rarely play in any kind of sanctioned event. But, when we do we are on our best behavior.

And even a lowly chop like me can replace my ball directly in front of my marker. And I know if I'm setting it in a depression.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Buckeyebowman

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

The score absolutely is under review if it is not considered final at the time the player completes the round.

No, it isn't. The score is finalized when the player signs the card and leaves the scoring area. That doesn't mean penalties cannot be discovered and assessed, but the player has no ability to change her score after they sign and turn in their card.

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

The score absolutely is under review if it is not considered final at the time the player completes the round.

What if player says five and it's proved six or vice versa?

simple disqualification

Because the score is finalized when they sign. That's why 6-6d applied: incorrect scorecard.

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

my simple solution has not been 'shot down' just summarily dismissed without reason.

It's been shot down a few times.

The player is responsible for attesting to their score and following the rules, not the scoring official sitting in the tent all day.

You're searching for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, as a way of excusing Lexi failing in her responsibility to play by and understand the rules of the game that has made her fairly wealthy and famous.

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

You also said if they thought she signed with intent they could choose to disqualify her...

They could. Look up the rules yourself man.

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

so the LPGA allows judgement based on interpretation of player intent?

Yup. Better than just DQing everyone for a wrong scorecard, don't you think?

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

This situation was terrible for the game.  My solution makes this result IMPOSSIBLE.

Your "solution" absolves players from penalties for breaches of the rules as soon as they sign their card. Your "solution" sucks.

@Jack Watson, I await your explanation and/or apology re: my daughter's match play qualifier.

7 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

You made a great point when you said, "Other sports have referees (golf rules officials are NOT referees) and players trying to get away with as much as possible." It's the old saying, "if you're not cheating, you're not trying". What would happen to golf if that mindset were allowed to take hold.

Golf would become a shit show.

[GolfLug]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

More than 18. Some holes have multiple groups on it.

 

..on a 15 sq mile park.

[Denny Bang Bang]

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Players are responsible for knowing the rules and abiding by them.

 

I don't disagree with that, nor the way it was handled (as it was handled by the book).  My opinion is that it seems a little overkill (I.e. insult to injury).  The rules are the rules, but it doesn't mean someone has to like all of them (e.g. kind of like most of us seem to not like the proposed flagstick rule)

[Jack Watson]

Hey I chose not to further comment on your daughter because I was not there.

you did say she got into a playoff because they added up her score wrong

so my thought immediately was she equaled a playoff score because of bad math so the real score was either higher or lower than that necessary to playoff

i apologize if I misunderstood the point you were trying to convey but it seemed at the time to me like you were saying she ONLY made it in because of a math mistake of some sort

my apologies as I never should have followed up on that based on assumption instead of fact and being there

IACAS I apologize.  I hope you accept that.

As far as the rules go I see no reason why the round is left open to penalty after the governing body has accepted the card.

In this case I fundamentally disagree with how golf is run and it's unbelievable to me situations like what happened to Lexi are even possible.

My opinion is that there needs to be an end of each players round score inquisition changing penalizing and whatever.  The only logical place I can see for that is when the card is turned over to the governing body.

At that point if nothing has been found then there is certainly nothing of note anyways.  Stapler put a towel down so as not to stain his knickers.

so what.

I cannot see the logic of the application of any post round retroactive penalty.

 

[cutchemist42]

i know the placement was absurd but honestly asking, how much deviation is allowed? I mean every marked ball that is replaced is never the same as before despite our best effort.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

The rules are the rules, but it doesn't mean someone has to like all of them (e.g. kind of like most of us seem to not like the proposed flagstick rule)

You're right, a person doesn't have to like them.

3 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Hey I chose not to further comment on your daughter because I was not there.

you did say she got into a playoff because they added up her score wrong

so my thought immediately was she equaled a playoff score because of bad math so the real score was either higher or lower than that necessary to playoff

i apologize if I misunderstood the point you were trying to convey but it seemed at the time to me like you were saying she ONLY made it in because of a math mistake of some sort

my apologies as I never should have followed up on that based on assumption instead of fact and being there

IACAS I apologize.  I hope you accept that.

It's very simple. They originally thought she hadn't tied. They had her a stroke higher. We had them re-count the scores on her signed scorecard and they found that they'd added them up wrong the first time. She tied, she wasn't one shot behind the other girl.

They played off. She won.

She did not take advantage of a math error, she had them correct their math error.

5 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

As far as the rules go I see no reason why the round is left open to penalty after the governing body has accepted the card.

Because the player is ultimately responsible for playing under the rules and signing a correct score card.

5 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

My opinion is that there needs to be an end of each players round score inquisition changing penalizing and whatever.

That cut-off point exists. It's when the competition closes.

5 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

At that point if nothing has been found then there is certainly nothing of note anyways.  Stapler put a towel down so as not to stain his knickers.

so what.

It violated the rules. Still would today.

2 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

i know the placement was absurd but honestly asking, how much deviation is allowed? I mean every marked ball that is replaced is never the same as before despite our best effort.

Far less than what she did.

[roamin]

I didn't mind it at first, but the ranting about folks at home, or anyone for that matter, staying out of it is getting old... Lexi should have called the penalty on herself! (I'll never buy that she didn't know she moved it.)

[sac1]

3 hours ago, mvmac said:

That's exactly what I thought but now I'm not so sure. I think the ball may have been in a slight depression. Maybe I've watched this clip too many times but it looks like she's on her way to tap it in when she grounds her putter but then she stops and decides to mark it. Probably seeing that the ball isn't sitting perfectly. 

When she picks up the ball she doesn't seem to do much re-aligning, she just picks it up and puts it in a different spot.

Is she a cheater? I don't know, she might have thought that she was still in the "safe zone" for the amount she adjusted the ball. Trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. I think most pros hold themselves up to a high standard and very few actively try to cheat or get away with violating the rules.

Curious what others think but I don't think she's as innocent as I originally thought she was.

 

I agree with your observation.  

If picking up the ball was solely to align the line on the ball with the hole, then there wasn't even a glance towards the hole or standing behind it to check that all was in line. Though in defence of Lexi, if you are used to  putting with a line on the ball and it is not in line with where you want it to go it can be distracting even  for a short putt, she could have just been rotating the ball so her alignment line was out of sight, hence why there was no apparent checking of the alignment prior to hitting the putt.  Only those with a close knowledge of her playing habits could really confirm here.

 I suspect there was a depression in front of it or it was sitting in one.......most likely that wouldn't be visible on the video.

I hadn't heard about the Chella Choi incident until now, most think this was a deliberate move, don't see much difference for Lexi's case.

I think that this has worked out for Lexi as best as it could, she has either deliberately or clumsily moved the ball more than a reasonable distance from its original position and a penalty should be the result, lucky to avoid DQ in my opinion.  The extra 2 shot penalty for signing an incorrect card when one supposedly didn't know they had violated the rules,  yes open for discussion.

Possibly it happens a lot, I know in my regular games often the ball comes to rest in similar indentations or has one in front of it that can make the ball bobble off course on a putt of that length.  There should be/will be  an added focus by all competitors that they will be scrutinised for how they mark the ball and put it back.

 

Yes golf is different to other sports, a tennis player will press their luck with how much they can put their foot on the line while serving and only back off if the umpire calls the fault.  Golf we can't put refs everywhere and since in most cases its the player who knows exactly where the ball was, whether it moved etc, hold the player up to officiate themselves and if they unfortunately are caught out not doing that, then the consequences should be severe.

Edited April 4, 2017 by sac1