Poor Instruction Is Very Common. Why?

[Kalnoky]

The golf swing is an athletic move that comes from your core muscles. It's almost like boxing. I would never have figured it out on my own. I don't doubt that some guys can figure it out by studying the physics. But I think the best way to teach it is as an athletic move. 

[mvmac]

3 hours ago, Apoc81 said:

I'm no pro, I would never try to give lessons, but that doesn't change the fact that the swing is simple, and if you understand it, you could most certainly teach yourself. 

There is a huge difference between understanding the golf swing and being able to teach yourself. If we take a look at the thousands (maybe millions) of golfers that have tried to teach themselves....the track record isn't very good 

[Vinsk]

12 minutes ago, mvmac said:

There is a huge difference between understanding the golf swing and being able to teach yourself. If we take a look at the thousands (maybe millions) of golfers that have tried to teach themselves....the track record isn't very good 

Absolutely. I understand what I need to do in order to hit a solid, accurate shot. There are many, many ways that can be accomplished and none of them are easy regardless of one's 'understanding' of the (a) golf swing. 

[gregsandiego]

14 hours ago, Apoc81 said:

 but that doesn't change the fact that the swing is simple, and if you understand it, you could most certainly teach yourself. 

I couldn't disagree more.

[Jack Watson]

I think most people of average coordination could get a low eighties score on say a benign course at less than 6400 yards with good help to ensure they are working on the right things and were motivated.

I think breaking into the seventies is maybe a bit beyond average coordination combined with working on good concepts good help etc.

I do have the view that the swing is simple,  the thing that's complex is how you do it,  or it can be.

The more you analyze the more complex it becomes.  Pretty much akin to almost any phenomena.

[Rsuslow]

As mentioned a few times, I think it's all about communication.

I need an instructor to describe a feeling in the golf swing. Others learn different and need tools like the goofy swing shirt or other contraptions.

I feel the first lesson should always be about setting up the best way to communicate with one another.

[Piz]

I took three lessons from a guy who spoke hardly a word of English.  We used one club per lesson.  He would make a couple passes and then hand me the club.  I'd make a couple passes and hand it back.  Sometimes he would interrupt, ask for the club, demonstrate what I was doing and what was different about what he was doing...and hand me the club back again.  They were three of the best lessons I've ever had.  We'd have had more; but he moved back to his home country.  The language barrier, as it turns out, is no barrier at all.  The only important thing is communication.  

[gregsandiego]

4 minutes ago, Piz said:

I took three lessons from a guy who spoke hardly a word of English.  We used one club per lesson.  He would make a couple passes and then hand me the club.  I'd make a couple passes and hand it back.  Sometimes he would interrupt, ask for the club, demonstrate what I was doing and what was different about what he was doing...and hand me the club back again.  They were three of the best lessons I've ever had.  We'd have had more; but he moved back to his home country.  The language barrier, as it turns out, is no barrier at all.  The only important thing is communication.  

Sounds like a movie along the line of Karate Kid. And this guy sounds like the exception to the rule based on this thread.

[JonMA1]

15 hours ago, mvmac said:

There is a huge difference between understanding the golf swing and being able to teach yourself. If we take a look at the thousands (maybe millions) of golfers that have tried to teach themselves....the track record isn't very good 

 

15 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Absolutely. I understand what I need to do in order to hit a solid, accurate shot. There are many, many ways that can be accomplished and none of them are easy regardless of one's 'understanding' of the (a) golf swing. 

I agree with both posts. I'm not only one of those "millions", but could probably be the poster child.

I will say that when discussing this stuff and using words like "easy" and "good", it's relative. In my world, shooting in the low teens is good. I think there are certainly many who are athletic and intuitive enough to get there without lessons, just as there are many of us who struggle to get to even bogey golf without lessons.

But as the target HI gets lower, there are fewer and fewer who have the ability to do it on their own.

As far as the swing being simple, I think it's similar. Most could probably learn a swing that is simple, gets the ball down the fairway straight enough to stay out of trouble, and can be easily repeated. They can learn how to putt and chip and play enjoyable golf. 

But teaching ourselves a powerful swing without any compensations, and having the ability to maintain that swing for years is likely very difficult to do alone.

At some point most of us start to get an idea of what's needed, how much we're willing to put in and what level of game or progress we can live with.

[Zeph]

It's easy to become an instructor and the golf swing is very technical and difficult. There's a gap between the knowledge of the average pro and what's required to become a decent instructor. Even if you do have a great understanding of the golf swing and how it works, you need people skills to be able to properly teach a vast variety of individuals.

[Hategolf]

I took some lessons from this one guy, who told me I had to drop everything I knew about the swing cause it was wrong, he said it would take me 3yrs to become a lot better. I agreed to work with him. 

I had a really hard time executing the moves because I didn't fully understand the mechanics. He moved away. Looking back now I know he was 100% correct. I wished I would have know more about the swing then, I would have progressed a lot faster.

 

[Jack Watson]

The other thing is physical limitations.

Theres a lot I cannot do.  Not even in slow motion.  It's not that I don't know what I think would be ideal or what a pro tells me to try,  it's just that I can't do it even in slow motion without literally quivering with tension.

I can't do yoga and feel where the clubhead is in my swing at the same time.

 

Edited July 22, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Hacker James]

While I do not doubt the value of quality instruction, I have mixed views. I will probably get a bit of flack on this, but for some, I think that they can accomplish good results on their own provided they follow basic concepts and more importantly recognize what they need to work on. (Obviously, here is where the benefit of quality instruction comes in play). The caveat is that most simply do not know what they need to work on or may employ the wrong solutions. 

I have never had a formal lesson, but I believe that I do have the ability to recognize and choose the techniques that apply to me. Also, I don't adopt every jot and tittle that I see or read, I believe that I intuitively know how to separate the wheat from the chaff. 

Many will disagree and many would tell me that "But, you could be so much better with a qualified instructor."

Maybe so,. but for the present I am satisfied with my progress. I just need to play more.

[mfm22]

I've taken lesson's from a few different instructors over the last 12 years . Some were "Method " teachers - TGM  & Carl Lohren  to mention the ones I remember ... Honestly they were good instructors but way to methodical - imo 

A few in between were not very good and just spewed the same basic info to every student - It's a good idea to try to watch your instructor / pro work with a few different types of students and listen - see what they say - work on - if it's the same things  be a little concerned  as every body has a bit of their own DNA .  I know most beginners  have similar issues - OTT  being a very common one 

Every student will respond to the corrections in a different way so the lesson has to fit the student -  doing the same drill for every OTT   student will yield some results  but likely leave a few very frustrated folks 

The instructor I've worked with recently has been helping but not really finding the cause - just slapping some band aids .

He tries hard and spends xtra time with me but the bottom line is  WE are not fixing some of the issues 

It's hard to teach a complex motor skill without a well rounded knowledge of skill & most importantly the ability to Communicate  with many different types of students -

 I'm realizing that I am more visual - need to see - copy for my own - then associate a " feel" 

[alfriday]

To me, the biggest problem with most golf instruction is not the instructor, but the method that is generally and commonly used by instructors to teach a player.  Few instructors teach a swing, they teach swing parts.  They correct swing parts instead of teaching a full swing that eliminates the mistake before they happen.  It has shown up numerous times in this thread:  the golf swing is incredibly difficult and complex, the player needs to get to this position, your wrist has to pronate (or supinate), 60 % of your weight has to be on your back foot (or front foot), etc.  The current method treats symptoms instead of the underlying illness.     

 

When I was young, I did a lot of fishing with my father.  I learned to cast very effectively.  I could place the lure over a log, or next to a stump or...you get the idea.  I learned to cast overhand, side arm and underhand   Casting a fishing lure to a spot is not much different from hitting a golf shot.  The movements are just as complex.  But, we don't break the motion down into minutia like we do in golf.

 

In the days before high speed cameras and stop motion video, trackman, doppler radar, etc.,  Harvey Penik used a grass whip to teach a swing.  Ernest Jones and Manuel de la Torre used a ball on a string.  Players learned a swing, not positions.  Focus was on the target and swinging to the target, not on the ball and getting the club into the "correct" place at the top of the back swing.

 

A few current instructors teach a full swinging motion, but they are few and far between.  Jimmy Ballard, Shawn Clement, Golf Made Simple, are a few.

 

I'm sure I'll catch a lot of flack for my views.  Thinking differently requires one to break out of the current paradigm and look at what has worked for generations of golfers.  It also corresponds to the latest research on results oriented learning.  Hopefully the cycle of body part focus and positions in a swing is coming to an end.  But, I'm not holding my breath.      

[Zeph]

2 hours ago, Hacker James said:

While I do not doubt the value of quality instruction, I have mixed views. I will probably get a bit of flack on this, but for some, I think that they can accomplish good results on their own provided they follow basic concepts and more importantly recognize what they need to work on. (Obviously, here is where the benefit of quality instruction comes in play). The caveat is that most simply do not know what they need to work on or may employ the wrong solutions. 

I have never had a formal lesson, but I believe that I do have the ability to recognize and choose the techniques that apply to me. Also, I don't adopt every jot and tittle that I see or read, I believe that I intuitively know how to separate the wheat from the chaff. 

Many will disagree and many would tell me that "But, you could be so much better with a qualified instructor."

Maybe so,. but for the present I am satisfied with my progress. I just need to play more.

Playing and practicing more can help, but it can also work against your goals. Most people will get better by playing golf, but most will peak at some point and not get better no matter how much they play. There's no doubt practice and playing is a way to improve, but if you are doing the wrong stuff, doing it thousands of times can only ingrain the errors more, making it even harder to change.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's easier to teach a fairly new player a good golf swing than to correct the swing of a player that's been playing for 10+ years and has a handicap of 15-20. One reason it's difficult to make changes in a golf swing is that you've been doing things "wrong" for a very long time and it's what the body and muscles remember. It's not impossible, but it takes more effort while practicing and playing.

[Dave2512]

IMO it's more a student problem than a instructor problem. Most golfers are so bad any improvement is low hanging fruit and that coupled with people wanting instant fixes and not being willing to put in the time they get half-assed instruction. I see people that do so much wrong one simple tip would make them better but the first time they hit a bad shot it's back to bad habits.

Expectation is the issue. They want drive-thru fixes that produce instant results and don't realize that at their skill level they are going to hit a bunch of bad shots no matter what. I've been a 5-8 handicap golfer for 4 years. On a good day I hit maybe a couple real good shots. Everything else is a half decent mishit. Bows my mind when I see a 20 handicap guy expecting to hit a bunch of great shots. It takes a lot of work to get there.

 

[Hacker James]

2 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

 

Expectation is the issue. They want drive-thru fixes that produce instant results and don't realize that at their skill level they are going to hit a bunch of bad shots no matter what. I've been a 5-8 handicap golfer for 4 years. On a good day I hit maybe a couple real good shots. Everything else is a half decent mishit. Bows my mind when I see a 20 handicap guy expecting to hit a bunch of great shots. It takes a lot of work to get there.

 

That is probably true for the majority. I have no lofty expectations. Lately, I have been fairly consistent at scoring in the low eighties and am confident I will break that barrier very soon. I have my share of bad shots and poor decisions. I also am in the process of re-learning my club distances and that in of itself is not easy as it is hard to get over the stigma of what once was and is no more. It takes discipline to take out a lower lofted club on a 100 yard approach than one you have used all your golf life. It throws everything off across the board, but once you realize what the "new" distances are it becomes fun. My swing has become pretty consistent and more or less automatic save for specialty shots that are learned through experiences. An example would be that I now might use a putter from a lot further off the putting surface if the optics are right and the apron provides a good surface. I am talking about 10-12 feet or so when before it would be a wedge or toe down eight iron if I needed a lot of roll out.  I only have maybe 10 years of golf left in me and I have no delusions about breaking par, oh, I might do it once or twice but those would be exceptions not expectations.