GolfTec Numbers (Golf Digest Aug. '17)

[iacas]

Nick Clearwater, a buddy of mine (and @mvmac and @david_wedzik and others) is the head instructional guy at GolfTec these days, and generally has good information.

Though I'm not always a huge fan (I'll explain why a bit later) of using "Tour averages" to teach average players, the numbers are still illustrative. Let's take a look at each, with the numbers and a brief note on each.

Hip Sway (Backswing)

Pros: 3.9" toward the target
Ams: 2.55" toward the target
Notes: This measures the tailbone and how much it moves toward the target during the backswing. As the tailbone is at 12 o'clock, and as it rotates toward 3 o'clock, that's toward the target. Amateurs often sway the hips back as they rotate, robbing them of some of this distance.
Example:

 

Shoulder Tilt at the Top

Pros: 36° downward (lead shoulder)
Ams: 29.6° downward
Notes: This is just how "flat" or "steep" your shoulders turn at the top of the backswing. Keeping your chin up, standing too tall at address, rotating and lifting up are all causes.
Example: Charley Hoffman's shoulder tilt matches spine angle:

 

Hip Turn at Impact

Pros: 36° open to the target line
Ams: 19.5° open
Notes: Amateurs stall for a lot of reasons, but one of the bigger ones is that they stall so that they can try to drop the club inside a little and get the clubhead down to the ball. Often this isn't something you worry about until you're a lower handicap golfer, but good golfers almost all rotate through impact - you won't find many PGA Tour pros who are relatively "square" at impact.
Example: Dustin Johnson and Jim Furyk are wide open at impact:

 

Hip Sway at Impact

Pros: 1.6" toward the target
Ams: -0.4" toward the target
Notes: This is measured relative to the setup position, and remember, the hips are rotating here and this measurement is still at the tailbone. So a tailbone that has AWAY from the target (think 12 o'clock at setup to before 11 o'clock at impact, or 36° per the above), has also slid several inches - the difference between 10:48 and 12:00 is made up for, PLUS an additional 1.6". The average golfer is not only rotating less (11:21), but they're not sliding their hips forward much if at all (11:21 may be close to -0.4"…).
Example: Rose at Setup and Impact (tailbone marked):

 

Shoulder Tilt at Impact

Pros: 39° upward (face-on view)
Ams: 27.5°
Notes: This is a measure, as seen from face-on, of how much shoulder tilt from the trail to the lead shoulder the average player has versus the PGA Tour player. Because PGA Tour players are more forward and more open, it follows that this number will be greater, too.
Example: Tiger Woods and Fred Couples demonstrate this well here:

 

Shoulder Bend in the Follow Through

Pros: 32° back bend
Ams: 3.2° back bend
Notes: This is a measurement of how far forward your hips are versus your head. If you're straight up and down, the measurement would be 0°. If you're doing a "morning stretch" and really arching your back, pushing your "belt" out and forward and up, you'll get a higher number.
Example: Zach Johnson and Adam Scott show this off quite well:

---

As to why I don't like teaching averages… Dustin Johnson and Jim Furyk are very open. They're both one of the longer and shorter hitters out there. Averages are just that - an average - and players exist across a pretty wide spectrum. If the average AoA with a 7-iron is 4.1° down, you'll find PGA Tour players winning millions of dollars at 5° down and 2° down… and both can work well.

Everyone's built differently. Averages account for all body types, all shot shapes, all types of swings. You know how if they take the average measurements of models and build a "model model," it's not all that attractive? The same can be true of striving to get the "average PGA Tour golf swing numbers." You might end up with something that's pretty, but you'd never get Cindy Crawford's mole.

[Rsuslow]

Good information.

I took a lesson at a local Golf Tech and then stopped because of how they focused on getting me close to or on the average.  Nothing felt right in my swing during the lesson.  I'm not not athletic, but I know I don't compare and will never compare to these guys on tour.

The lesson wasn't a waste though, he gave me some really good tips on hitting out of a bunker that have really helped my sand game.  I haven't had to hit out of the same bunker twice since.

The one number I do focus on is shoulder tilt in the backswing at the top, but not necessarily the degree of tilt.  I focus on trying to get my shoulders/arms 90 degrees to my spine.  I've been known to be very flat with the shoulder turn even though I have the proper spine angle at setup.

[dennyjones]

Some good information.   Thanks for sharing.

[mvmac]

Thanks for sharing, good explanation of each measurement.

Yes you have to be careful with averages but it still drives the point home. What I like is that regardless of how a player's swing looks or their swing "style", they're all doing these pieces well.

[Wanzo]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

Hip Turn at Impact

 

11 hours ago, iacas said:

Pros: 36° open to the target line
Ams: 19.5° open

That's a pretty big gap.  I had a lesson a long time ago where the guy wanted everyone to get back to square at impact. Maybe that sort of thinking goes to your comment about this applying more to better players. 

 

11 hours ago, iacas said:

Shoulder Tilt at Impact

 

11 hours ago, iacas said:

Pros: 39° upward (face-on view)
Ams: 27.5°

Would this number vary quite a bit through the bag (wedge to driver)?  Seems like maybe the driver swing in particular could have more. 

 

6 hours ago, mvmac said:

What I like is that regardless of how a player's swing looks or their swing "style", they're all doing these pieces well.

Good point. 

[Missouri Swede]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

Hip Sway (Backswing)

Pros: 3.9" toward the target
Hip Sway at Impact

Pros: 1.6" toward the target

So the tailbone is closer to the target at the end of the backswing than at impact? Or are these measuring something different?

[billchao]

Thanks for sharing, @iacas.

15 hours ago, iacas said:

Everyone's built differently. Averages account for all body types, all shot shapes, all types of swings. You know how if they take the average measurements of models and build a "model model," it's not all that attractive? The same can be true of striving to get the "average PGA Tour golf swing numbers." You might end up with something that's pretty, but you'd never get Cindy Crawford's mole.

I feel like this is a pretty important point. I see people striving to achieve these types of numbers as an ideal model when it's just averages of many different people. There may not even be a single player that hits all of these exactly. What's important is recognizing commonalities and knowing how to use that information to improve.

3 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

So the tailbone is closer to the target at the end of the backswing than at impact?

Yes. The hips close during the backswing and the tailbone gets closer to the target. The hips open in the downswing and the tailbone gets farther away from the target. The reason the tailbone is ahead of its address position at impact is because the hips slide.

If the tailbone is closer to the target at A7 than at A4 and the hips are opening properly, it could be the result of too much sliding which can cause other issues.

[No Mulligans]

On 7/22/2017 at 6:33 AM, Missouri Swede said:

So the tailbone is closer to the target at the end of the backswing than at impact? Or are these measuring something different?

For right handed players, given you are rotating around your spines position... I'm thinking it must be the right hip bone (or think right back pocket if you will) is moving closer to the target during the backswing.  The left hip bone is moving away from the target during the backswing.

Edited July 26, 2017 by No Mulligans

[Piz]

1 hour ago, No Mulligans said:

For right handed players, given you are rotating around your spines position... I'm thinking it must be the right hip bone (or think right back pocket if you will) is moving closer to the target during the backswing.  The left hip bone is moving away from the target during the backswing.

Failure to execute this movement correctly can, at times, result in a significant lightening of one or the other back pocket.

[Grizvok]

So while further studying some numbers in the GolfTEC Swing Tru motion study, I got confused about some numbers that don't seem adequately explained in the article or two I've read. I believe I know the answer but wanted to be sure I wasn't misinterpreting something. In the category of hip sway: top position the pro golfer had 3.9" of sway towards the target at the top of the backswing, however; in the category of hip sway: impact position the pro had just 1.6" of sway towards the target.

What gives? To determine the total amount of sway at impact are we supposed to add both of these numbers i.e. 3.9" plus 1.6" to get 5.5"? 

[billchao]

7 hours ago, Grizvok said:

What gives? To determine the total amount of sway at impact are we supposed to add both of these numbers i.e. 3.9" plus 1.6" to get 5.5"? 

No. The tailbone is closer to the target at A4 than at impact.

The 3.9" and 1.6" are both measured from their initial position at address.

[Grizvok]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

No. The tailbone is closer to the target at A4 than at impact.

The 3.9" and 1.6" are both measured from their initial position at address.

Thanks. Looks like I should've just given this thread a thorough read. After the first time reading through it I went to GolfTEC's site where they were ambiguous about how it was measured.