Golf's Mental Game Aspect

[Dean Walker]

I know I am an outlier or a 'headcase' as you politely put it but your total disregard for the mental game is astonishing. 

And that poll is just poll that most people who voted probably didnt really understand what you meant fully. (And probably didnt give it more than 4 seconds of thought) 

Peoples actions suggest that they know the physical part is by far and away the most important aspect. Most golfers are on the range having lessons on their swing not visiting their local shrink working on vizualisation. 

So for you to say that people are more prone to blaming the mental game is horse crap. 

And I have heard you say before you dont even get nervous in tournaments - well i would say that makes you an outlier. 

1/3 people will suffer from an anxiety disorder in their lifetime so there are a lot of outliers going around. 

On a normal practice round with no nerves, i can comfortably shoot under par. 

Get me in a tournament with pressure and I can often shoot in the 80's. 

But hey im a headcase, but i think there are quite a few of us about where a mental coach could make a nice difference to not only our level but our wellbeing as well. 

And why is it that Faldo says even now that he thinks vizualisation is the most important tool with have?

And why does Jack Nicklaus attribute a large amount of his success to vizualisation?

And why does Jordan Spieth imagine highlight reels of his best shots?

I think there is more in it than you give credit for. Maybe if you suffered with anxiety for more than 5 minutes you might appreciate it a bit more. 

 

 

 

[iacas]

@Dean Walker, your "astonishment" that I don't really talk about or consider "outliers" isn't really valid. They're outliers for a reason, and I'm not talking about them.

I also don't think that the people taking four seconds to respond to a Twitter poll are heavily weighing the outliers, either, but yet still ~1/4 of the respondents said that half or more of the difference between an average guy who shoots 80 and an average guy who shoots 70 is the mental game.

1 hour ago, Dean Walker said:

Peoples actions suggest that they know the physical part is by far and away the most important aspect. Most golfers are on the range having lessons on their swing not visiting their local shrink working on vizualisation.

I agree, and yet when they talk, they say differently.

1 hour ago, Dean Walker said:

So for you to say that people are more prone to blaming the mental game is horse crap.

Let me be clear here: people will blame the mental game even when the shot is one that they'd normally hit. They blame the "mental game" quite often even when the shot they hit fits well within their Shot Zone. They do so in far, far greater amounts than is appropriate or accurate.

I've had guys who can't break 90 tell me they'd be scratch with a better mental game, and these people do not seem at all to be the outliers (well, that ridiculous level is, but it's not uncommon - as we've seen in the poll - for people to think that the mental game is, in general responsible for a huge change in scores.

1 hour ago, Dean Walker said:

And I have heard you say before you dont even get nervous in tournaments - well i would say that makes you an outlier.

Everyone gets nervous. I don't start shaking or anything; that doesn't make me an outlier.

I have said two things, that I quickly saw, about nerves:

On 1/9/2018 at 10:00 AM, iacas said:

I think people often over-value confidence. I've hit some of my best shots when I've been nervous. I've hit some of my worst shots when I was quite confident.

… and …

On 1/9/2018 at 10:00 AM, iacas said:

I don't get too nervous playing in tournaments.

After which I said that for me, maybe that means my "mental game" is 1% responsible instead of 5%. I said I might be an outlier in the other direction from you.

1 hour ago, Dean Walker said:

1/3 people will suffer from an anxiety disorder in their lifetime so there are a lot of outliers going around.

That's a really bad use of statistics, as those people aren't suffering from anxiety their entire life, and it doesn't express whether that anxiety actually affects their physical performance. If I have an anxiety disorder for two years because my child is sick, and I live to be 80, that's 2.5% of my life, and it may not even affect my performance at work. Heck, a lot of people excel at things when they're anxious about other things because the "job" offers an escape to them.

1 hour ago, Dean Walker said:

On a normal practice round with no nerves, i can comfortably shoot under par. Get me in a tournament with pressure and I can often shoot in the 80's.

I think that one of the errors you keep making, and I keep allowing, is that your experiences are outliers, and you're talking almost entirely about yourself. I'm looking at generalized things, and statistics with millions of samples. You're looking at a few rounds by an exception, not the rule.

1. You've already established that you're an outlier. Self-admitted.
2. I still don't think you're accounting for the idea that normally in tournaments the courses are set up a bit differently (harder).

This conversation isn't about you specifically.

1 hour ago, Dean Walker said:

But hey im a headcase, but i think there are quite a few of us about where a mental coach could make a nice difference to not only our level but our wellbeing as well.

There are a lot of golfers out there, so using the word "quite a few" doesn't really have any context. 100? Sure. 1,000? Sure. 40% of all golfers? No way. And we'd have to agree on what a "nice" difference is.

1 hour ago, Dean Walker said:

And why is it that Faldo says even now that he thinks vizualisation is the most important tool with have?

"Why is it that Faldo thinks the ball starts along the path of the swing and curves back to where the clubface is pointing?"

Just cuz a Tour player says it's true doesn't make it so. Charles Howell III said that "I feel the same on every shot, every round. Some are good. Some are bad. I don't know what the difference is."

Just as with the full swing, I don't really care what Tour players say they do, I care what they actually do. And what they actually do is not hire sports psychologists. Not like during the boom in the 90s. The top 25 don't have a sports psychologist among them, IIRC.

1 hour ago, Dean Walker said:

I think there is more in it than you give credit for. Maybe if you suffered with anxiety for more than 5 minutes you might appreciate it a bit more.

You don't know me, man. You seem to be using yourself almost entirely and some famous player quotes.

---

You, @Dean Walker, have a glaring weakness. You're "abnormal" and I just mean that by the definition, not as a value judgment.

I recommend Bhrett McCabe. His "four types of mental approaches" (I think) seems to make the most sense to me.

[Dean Walker]

37 minutes ago, iacas said:

Let me be clear here: people will blame the mental game even when the shot is one that they'd normally hit. They blame the "mental game" quite often even when the shot they hit fits well within their Shot Zone. They do so in far, far greater amounts than is appropriate or accurate.

I've had guys who can't break 90 tell me they'd be scratch with a better mental game, and these people do not seem at all to be the outliers (well, that ridiculous level is, but it's not uncommon - as we've seen in the poll - for people to think that the mental game is, in general responsible for a huge change in scores.

Well that's absurd and I am definitely not suggesting this at all.

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's a really bad use of statistics, as those people aren't suffering from anxiety their entire life, and it doesn't express whether that anxiety actually affects their physical performance. If I have an anxiety disorder for two years because my child is sick, and I live to be 80, that's 2.5% of my life, and it may not even affect my performance at work. Heck, a lot of people excel at things when they're anxious about other things because the "job" offers an escape to them.

Ok, maybe not the greatest use of statistics but I was just trying to express the point that a lot of people struggle with anxiety and there maybe quite a few outliers. I cannot comment on whether it directly affects their performance - I can only go by what I have experienced and it really does for me(as you would probably expect)

 

41 minutes ago, iacas said:

• You've already established that you're an outlier. Self-admitted.
• I still don't think you're accounting for the idea that normally in tournaments the courses are set up a bit differently (harder). 

At the moment you have suggested there are two groups. Non-outliers and outliers. But my performance anxiety didn't just happen overnight - it was much slower than that, so I would suggest, its more of a spectrum. Some golfers need no help, some may need a little direction, some may need a lot (outliers). I think the mental game can be the difference between feeling fulfilled by the game and not. I think that makes it quite important. 

 

46 minutes ago, iacas said:

There are a lot of golfers out there, so using the word "quite a few" doesn't really have any context. 100? Sure. 1,000? Sure. 40% of all golfers? No way. And we'd have to agree on what a "nice" difference is.

Impossible to make this statement without being inside the outliers body 🙂

47 minutes ago, iacas said:

Just cuz a Tour player says it's true doesn't make it so. Charles Howell III said that "I feel the same on every shot, every round. Some are good. Some are bad. I don't know what the difference is."

I wish I was Charles Howell :)

49 minutes ago, iacas said:

You, @Dean Walker, have a glaring weakness. You're "abnormal" and I just mean that by the definition, not as a value judgment.

Yes maybe or maybe I am just very open about my issues whereas some golfers who feel the same may not open up as much.

We will never fully agree as we are coming from totally different experiences. Its impossible for me to fully see your opinion and vice versa. If I didn't feel nervous in tournaments (which is what you said about yourself) then I would think the mental game is bogus as well. But if you were me, you would find it impossible to feel the way you do about it. 

Haven't said that I whole heartedly agree, the main premise of the game is physical. I have not once disputed that - I just feel like their is more value to having good mental skills than you are suggesting. :)

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Dean Walker said:

I know I am an outlier or a 'headcase' as you politely put it but your total disregard for the mental game is astonishing. 

And that poll is just poll that most people who voted probably didnt really understand what you meant fully. (And probably didnt give it more than 4 seconds of thought) 

Peoples actions suggest that they know the physical part is by far and away the most important aspect. Most golfers are on the range having lessons on their swing not visiting their local shrink working on vizualisation. 

So for you to say that people are more prone to blaming the mental game is horse crap. 

And I have heard you say before you dont even get nervous in tournaments - well i would say that makes you an outlier. 

1/3 people will suffer from an anxiety disorder in their lifetime so there are a lot of outliers going around. 

On a normal practice round with no nerves, i can comfortably shoot under par. 

Get me in a tournament with pressure and I can often shoot in the 80's. 

But hey im a headcase, but i think there are quite a few of us about where a mental coach could make a nice difference to not only our level but our wellbeing as well. 

And why is it that Faldo says even now that he thinks vizualisation is the most important tool with have?

And why does Jack Nicklaus attribute a large amount of his success to vizualisation?

And why does Jordan Spieth imagine highlight reels of his best shots?

I think there is more in it than you give credit for. Maybe if you suffered with anxiety for more than 5 minutes you might appreciate it a bit more. 

I’d be interested in what Mark Brodie determines from his pending study.

On first blush, I’d guess that mental game is overrated overall. Some people choke more than others, but the main difference between an 18 handicap and a 10 or high single digit is pretty much the swing. I think mental game makes more of a difference when the skill levels improve quite a bit.

 

4 minutes ago, Dean Walker said:

At the moment you have suggested there are two groups. Non-outliers and outliers. But my performance anxiety didn't just happen overnight - it was much slower than that, so I would suggest, its more of a spectrum. Some golfers need no help, some may need a little direction, some may need a lot (outliers). I think the mental game can be the difference between feeling fulfilled by the game and not. I think that makes it quite important. 

Going anecdotally, me and my friends started playing at the same time and my swing got better while some of theirs stayed the same. I score better on average than them or in some cases all the time with the same crappy overall game that I started with. We’re pretty typical people and if anything I’m more prone to giving up too soon that them. My confidence is a lot worse than average. Yet my swing seems to overcome even my mental deficiencies.

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Dean Walker said:

Ok, maybe not the greatest use of statistics but I was just trying to express the point that a lot of people struggle with anxiety and there maybe quite a few outliers.

IMO you failed to do that. Outliers can't make up the majority; they wouldn't be outliers at that point. Something that's barely one standard deviation from the norm isn't an outlier.

11 minutes ago, Dean Walker said:

I can only go by what I have experienced and it really does for me(as you would probably expect)

C'mon man…

11 minutes ago, Dean Walker said:

At the moment you have suggested there are two groups. Non-outliers and outliers. But my performance anxiety didn't just happen overnight - it was much slower than that, so I would suggest, its more of a spectrum. Some golfers need no help, some may need a little direction, some may need a lot (outliers). I think the mental game can be the difference between feeling fulfilled by the game and not. I think that makes it quite important. 

I'm talking about the folks within two standard deviations of the norm. What is that, 95.4%? The outliers are outside of that.

Yes, it's probably like a bell curve, with most people in the middle. (It's probably not like a smooth spectrum.)

I hate words like "can be." Of course almost anything "can be" for someone, somewhere. I'm talking about in general. That means:

• Small sample sizes like "in my experience…" don't matter.
• I'm not saying anything is "impossible"
• Anything that isn't literally impossible "can be".
• etc.

C'mon man…

11 minutes ago, Dean Walker said:

Impossible to make this statement without being inside the outliers body 🙂

That doesn't make any sense.

11 minutes ago, Dean Walker said:

Its impossible for me to fully see your opinion and vice versa. If I didn't feel nervous in tournaments (which is what you said about yourself) then I would think the mental game is bogus as well.

I didn't say I didn't feel nervous in tournaments, and I disagree that I don't understand where you're coming from. I don't think you can get outside of your own perspective.

11 minutes ago, Dean Walker said:

Haven't said that I whole heartedly agree, the main premise of the game is physical. I have not once disputed that - I just feel like their is more value to having good mental skills than you are suggesting. 🙂

I think the mental game contributes to a tiny bit of what separates one class of players from another. 4%, I've revised my answer to say, and my friend who spends the majority of his instructional time on Tour says that number is "way too high."

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I think mental game makes more of a difference when the skill levels improve quite a bit.

I don't.

Stat – Scoring Average

---

Strokes Gained | Scoring Overall | Under Par Scoring | Over Par Scoring | Scoring by Round | Par 3,4,5 Scoring | Front 9 Scoring | Back 9 Scoring | Early Scoring | Late Scoring | Scoring Off the 1st Tee | Scoring Off the 10th...

Dustin Johnson had a scoring average of 68.698 last year. The difference between him and second place (Justin Rose) was less than a third of a shot at 0.295.

I don't think that even 10% of that difference is "mental."

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Going anecdotally…

Just stop right there. Even if what you say after that supports my viewpoint, your experience is a small sample size.

[iacas]

Again, @Dean Walker, go seek help for your mental game. I'd never tell you not to. I'm talking about the general population of golfers, the masses, the guys and gals who fit within two standard deviations of the average. For those golfers, very little of their score is a result of "the mental game."

I wish you'd have read the new post with water, bunker, and green, and focused your commentary on the ideas expressed in that, but instead you've just recycled the same old stuff.

People get things wrong all the time. They blame the wrong things, they seek patterns when randomness exists, they are horrible at understanding probabilities, etc. All of those things support the idea that the mental game is given too much "weight" by the majority of golfers. Because golfers are human beings.

BTW, @Dean Walker, you should post in other topics here. There's a lot of great information, great discussions, and great fun and camaraderie to be had here. I disagree with you here, in general, but you're still a golfer, and thus, still a pal in my book.

---

To get back a bit to my earlier post, with the pretty graphics… I'm reminded of a Bob Rotella story from one of his books.

He said that Brad Faxon would, if he missed a few putts, have a bit more confidence over the next one. This seems counter-intuitive, because "missing putts" hardly seems like a way to build confidence. But, he said, Brad would just think to himself "well, I'm due!" If he misses that one, he'd think "Man, I'm really due now!"

The thing is… he's right. He would be due. It's simple reversion to the mean. Brad has a history of making a certain percentage of putts from various distances, and if he misses a bunch in a row to fall below his lifelong average, then statistically, he'll probably make a few more in a row to get his average back up.

I think that, if you could mentally erase the thought "I'm due" and the immeasurable confidence boost that supposedly gives Brad Faxon, that his performance would differ any more than it did. It'd be like Brad having the lucky quarter from up above - the physical nature of a coin landing 50/50 is what matters; confidence in the coin to land on "tails" has no effect at all.

I'm not saying golf has "no effect," but I said before 5%, and then in Strokes Gained language dropped it to 4%, and I'm comfortable there. 4% is negligible. (Remember, folks… 4% isn't from your score, but the difference between your score and another.)

[mvmac]

From my own experience there have been times where nerves have negatively affected my game. It's normal. There have also been times where I feel nerves have HELPED my game. Your ability to deal with that kind of stuff changes day to day, heck even hole to hole. Golf is four hours long (hopefully), it'd be crazy to expect yourself to have the same "mental toughness" for every shot.

Having said that, by far the most important determining factor of your score is your physical ability. Your ability to make the clutch 4-footer for par, to hit the solid first tee shot, to get the approach on the green when you're 1-up, depends on how good your swing/stroke is. Mental game counts, but in the grand scheme it's not that important to your overall score.

Also from my experience as my technique improved so did/has my mental game 💪

I had some horrible putting tournaments this year, just crazy bad with the short ones. Obviously I was feeling like a head case. I was using a claw grip and it was working well on the slower greens at my club but when I was in a tournament the greens were faster and more undulated. With the claw it was harder for me to make shorter strokes and that led me to making some long backswing "guided" strokes. Worked with my instructor on changing my grip, speed of my stroke and putted great the last three tournaments of the year. So the problem was mechanical that led to me feeling uneasy on the greens.

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Again, humans are typically very bad at this sort of stuff, because:

• Humans are emotional.
• Humans seek to place blame and find patterns.
• Humans are bad at understanding probability.
• Humans would often rather blame their minds rather than their physical abilities.

This is really good. Yes the less golfers can look for blame/patterns the better off they'll be. Never quite thought of it like that but makes sense to me.

I actually like situations where I "have to" do something, easier to focus. 

You'll hear about the golfers who say, "I wish I could take my driving range swing to the course". Mistake being they aren't aiming at a target. They're hitting off a flat lie and the only goal is to basically hit it solid. Club selection, wind, previous shots, how the ball is going to landl isn't a consideration. 

3 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't count GamePlanning as a mental game thing.

Agree. Just about putting in the time and understanding the options.

46 minutes ago, iacas said:

He said that Brad Faxon would, if he missed a few putts, have a bit more confidence over the next one. This seems counter-intuitive, because "missing putts" hardly seems like a way to build confidence. But, he said, Brad would just think to himself "well, I'm due!" If he misses that one, he'd think "Man, I'm really due now!"

Haha I do the same thing! I know I'm good enough to hit at least a couple shots close during a round so if I get off to a slow start I know I'm going to give myself chances soon. And if it doesn't happen that round I know I have a low round coming.

What can get me nervous is when I'm hitting it well/making putts the first 9-13 holes, is wondering when the law of averages is going to get me! 😂 

To me that's where a little mental game can help, not worrying about what not to do and focus on what I want to accomplish. Get the focus organized so the physical can take over.

[Pretzel]

One thing that I think is important to mention is that as soon as you convince yourself that your mental game is bad and hurting you when you play golf, then it will.

So many golfers fall into this trap. They talk themselves into a corner saying they're no good under pressure because it's so much easier to remember the negative experiences than the positive. I've done it myself, and it's even had an effect on my equipment selection. I used to love the Grafalloy Bi-Matrix shaft, but with very few changes to my swing it's gone from one of the best shafts for me to the absolute worst. Why? Because in one summer I had 1 Bi-Matrix come unglued and separate where the graphite meets the steel and had another come unglued at the hosel, both in tournaments. I just can't bring myself to trust that shaft anymore, even though the first was a freak occurrence and the second had nothing to do with the shaft itself.

Once you convince yourself that your mental game is costing you strokes, it'll always be in the back of your mind in pressure situations and it WILL cost you strokes. If you believe it's a non-issue and treat it as such, you'll see no harm from it because it's not this big scary thing looming over you like some kind of dark shadow. It's similar to the line of thinking that leads you to hit that tree you're specifically trying to avoid, because you think you have a poor mental game that's all you'll think about instead of just going through the motions like you should.

[GolfLug]

2 hours ago, mvmac said:

And if it doesn't happen that round I know I have a low round coming.

Yeah, by that measure I am due a good year anytime now...😄

 

[bkuehn1952]

On 1/29/2018 at 12:19 PM, mvmac said:

... three wedges shots, varying between 85 and 105 yards. Before each shot I had visions of me chunking each shot right before I took the club back, mostly because of the lie, ...

How's that for mental game? 

Sorry to quote such an old posting and to dredge up this old, beaten down topic.  I was just reading through the thread when I came across your comment.  My immediate thought was, "wow, someone else has these thoughts too?".

I don't get the "chunk image" on every wedge shot but it does occur to me somewhat frequently.  As with you, a very tight lie or thin muddy turf seems to trigger these images.  Fortunately, the actual results do not mirror the mental images too often.

[3jacker]

I love this topic, and agree with Erik. Golf is a physical sport, not a mental undertaking.  It's not something that you can "learn about" you have to do it.  A lot, if you want to get great.  Doing creates knowing.  Not reading, not pontification, not ruminating.

When a person is playing above their head, they know it, and often choke.  That's not a mental flaw.  That's the truth hitting them in the face.  

If you know you are great at something, you are fine mentally.  If you know you suck, or have a weakness, that's where the mental part comes in.  People act as if this were a flaw, but the truth is never a flaw.  How one responds and deals with it is often flawed.

The only real mental aspect to golf is figuring out how to tackle the course.  And that's not rocket science by any stretch.  And a little discipline (hit 2 iron instead of driver, don't get greedy, etc.).  

But a lot of folks (myself included, mostly in the past - I hope) would tear down a round and call muffed shots "mental" errors (because I could have hit it better) when in fact they reflected a lack of skill. 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, 3jacker said:

hit 2 iron instead of driver

OT, but no, that advice is typically wrong.

The "Distance Gradient" is very real.

[billchao]

7 hours ago, 3jacker said:

When a person is playing above their head, they know it, and often choke.

I find the opposite to be true for me. When I'm on a good run, the confidence builds. The run ends eventually but that's due to my skill level and not some mental fear that I'm playing better than I should be.

[mvmac]

Quick example that pros aren't mentally "tougher" than the rest of us, as well as the overall importance of the mental game (especially in regards to nerves).

I know Martin Trainer who just won in Puerto Rico last week, his first PGA Tour win. He told me on the 16th hole he was so nervous, his hands were shaking and that his goal was to just make contact. Here's the shot he hit.

 

[iacas]

Shaking doesn’t mean you hit a bad shot. Nor does it mean you’re mentally weak/bad.

[3jacker]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

OT, but no, that advice is typically wrong.

The "Distance Gradient" is very real.

Well in my case I was thinking to stay short of hazards, or tight/dangerous areas, as I hit them both about as "straight". Like those 330 yrd par 4s with a little pond in front, etc. Those times, the "mental" aspect is to be smart enough to do the % play given how you're hitting it that day, where you stand in the tournament and where the competition stands. 

I'm interested in the distance gradient - what does that mean in this context?  What you give up cancels out what you gain?  As in great, I hit the fairway but now I have 220 yds to the green vs. 160?

[iacas]

It’s in LSW, but yes: shades of grey.

[Buckeyebowman]

As far as @iacas performing well while nervous, I can concur. I studied piano for at least 10 years. I was expected to perform in a recital at least once every year. I hated that! I detested performing before an audience, but you know what? I never screwed up a performance! I always nailed it and got a nice round of applause. Didn't change my attitude about the whole ordeal!