High School Player Wins Tournament, Denied Trophy Because She Is a Girl

[nevets88]

Nash knew of the rule before she played, and the junior who received the trophy instead offered it to Nash. Rules are rules I guess, maybe I'm missing something as I'm not too knowledgeable about the ins and outs of junior golf, but seems like a silly rule, as opined by the PGA.

Quote

On Tuesday, Lunenburg High junior Emily Nash also shot a 75 in the Central Mass. Division 3 boys’ golf tournament at Blissful Meadows.

And while her 3-over-par score was four shots better than runner-up Nico Ciolino of AMSA, she wasn’t awarded the first-place trophy, and won’t be invited to next week’s state tournament at Wyantenuck CC in Great Barrington.

http://www.telegram.com/news/20171024/lunenburgs-emily-nash-beats-boys-by-4-shots-but-miaa-rule-prohibits-her-from-winning-cmass-d3-title

[billchao]

Seems like a stupid rule. She played the tournament under the same conditions and won.

Sounds like everyone is handling it well at least.

[Pretzel]

I'm confused. Is she playing on the boy's team because they don't have a girl's golf team in their high school/school district, or is it just for practice with better competition? 

Usually girl's golf in high school runs in the spring, so unless there is some circumstance that makes her unable to play on the girl's team (or there is no girl's team available for her to play on), I'm surprised she was allowed to play at all. The only cases I've ever seen of girls playing with the guys in high schools is cases like football where there simply is no option for girls.

That said, she kicked the boys' asses. Give her the trophy if she was allowed to play in the tournament in the first place.

[colin007]

Like a boss. Good for her. She don't need no stupid trophy. 

[Vinsk]

26 minutes ago, billchao said:

Seems like a stupid rule. She played the tournament under the same conditions and won.

Sounds like everyone is handling it well at least.

Rules are rules. It's the player's responsibility and/or parents in this case to know them. She chose to play. Rules are rules. Right? 

[Golfingdad]

21 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

I'm confused. Is she playing on the boy's team because they don't have a girl's golf team in their high school/school district, or is it just for practice with better competition? 

Usually girl's golf in high school runs in the spring, so unless there is some circumstance that makes her unable to play on the girl's team (or there is no girl's team available for her to play on), I'm surprised she was allowed to play at all. The only cases I've ever seen of girls playing with the guys in high schools is cases like football where there simply is no option for girls.

That said, she kicked the boys' asses. Give her the trophy if she was allowed to play in the tournament in the first place.

I think you're right about the fall/spring thing ...

(although that is a bunch of BS because when I was in high school I couldn't play golf because it was a spring sport alongside baseball.  I would've been golfing and couldn't have been talked into playing football by my JV baseball coach and, thus, wouldn't have broken my leg.  Aargh!!!) But I digress

... it sounds like her score was allowed to count for the teams total towards qualifying for team finals/prizes, even though its not allowed to count for her individually.  Nobody seems to be bothered by the ruling since the rule is clear, and they all knew it and followed it, but nobody seems to understand why the rule exists in the first place.  If you're going to allow somebody to play in a competition, then allow them to play in the competition.  Or don't allow them, just say, look, this is the boys team, girls finals are next season.  Either seems to make sense, but it seems they chose neither.

[Vinsk]

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

If you're going to allow somebody to play in a competition, then allow them to play in the competition.  Or don't allow them, just say, look, this is the boys team, girls finals are next season.  Either seems to make sense, but it seems they chose neither.

I agree with this completely. Unfortunately the 'rules are rules' and 'don't question the man behind the curtain' prevails. LOL. I'm kidding. Sort of.

[Ernest Jones]

51 minutes ago, colin007 said:

Like a boss. Good for her. She don't need no stupid trophy. 

I'm with Colin. Like a BOSS! That fact that they wouldn't give her the trophy makes it an even more BOSS moment, IMO. Hope she snapped her fingers and sashayed outta there like a Queen. 

[onthehunt526]

Here in New York, most schools don't have a girls golf team. It's just simply the "golf" team. So if this had happened here in New York, NYSPHSAA would have been required to allow her to play in the State tournament (which ironically in here in Ithaca).

But different state high school athletic associations have different rules. I suppose she could appeal to NFHS if she wanted to, but they tend to side with the state athletic associations.

[DaveP043]

Given the situation, I think everyone behaved pretty well:

The officials of the event followed the rules, exactly what they were supposed to do. 

The top official recognized the injustice of the rules, while he did his job in accordance with those rules.  He's said he'll do the little bit he can to recognize her achievement. 

The runner-up recognized the unfairness, and made a very magnanimous gesture,

and the young lady did a fine job of understanding the rules and declining the gesture. 

I find it a bit odd that the rules allow her to play in a boys team event, but not in a singles event, but I imagine that those rules will be re-evaluated pretty quickly.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Rules are rules. It's the player's responsibility and/or parents in this case to know them. She chose to play. Rules are rules. Right? 

They knew them, doesn't make it less stupid. She didn't get the win and an invitation to States just because she's a girl, even though she earned them on merit.

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

I think you're right about the fall/spring thing ...

(although that is a bunch of BS because when I was in high school I couldn't play golf because it was a spring sport alongside baseball.  I would've been golfing and couldn't have been talked into playing football by my JV baseball coach and, thus, wouldn't have broken my leg.  Aargh!!!) But I digress

Golf was a spring sport when I went to high school for both the boys and the girls. I don't believe our team was coed. Not that I played or anything.

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

... it sounds like her score was allowed to count for the teams total towards qualifying for team finals/prizes, even though its not allowed to count for her individually.  Nobody seems to be bothered by the ruling since the rule is clear, and they all knew it and followed it, but nobody seems to understand why the rule exists in the first place.  If you're going to allow somebody to play in a competition, then allow them to play in the competition.  Or don't allow them, just say, look, this is the boys team, girls finals are next season.  Either seems to make sense, but it seems they chose neither.

Yea that's why it's a stupid rule. It makes no sense at all that she's allowed to contribute to the team but can't be recognized as an individual. Either girls can play or they can't, but this weird half-way rule is odd.

50 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Given the situation, I think everyone behaved pretty well:

The officials of the event followed the rules, exactly what they were supposed to do. 

The top official recognized the injustice of the rules, while he did his job in accordance with those rules.  He's said he'll do the little bit he can to recognize her achievement. 

The runner-up recognized the unfairness, and made a very magnanimous gesture,

and the young lady did a fine job of understanding the rules and declining the gesture. 

I find it a bit odd that the rules allow her to play in a boys team event, but not in a singles event, but I imagine that those rules will be re-evaluated pretty quickly.

Yes, my sentiments exactly.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

Seems like a stupid rule. She played the tournament under the same conditions and won.

Simple rule, really:

Quote

According to MIAA rules, “Girls playing on a fall boys’ team cannot be entered in the Boys Fall Individual Tournament. They can only play in the Boys Team Tournament. If qualified, they can play in the spring Girls Sectional and State Championships.”

She gets to play and compete for the girls in the spring.

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

Usually girl's golf in high school runs in the spring,

FWIW, that's not true here in PA. Both are fall sports here (boys, girls).

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

I'm confused. Is she playing on the boy's team because they don't have a girl's golf team in their high school/school district, or is it just for practice with better competition? 

Girls who don't have a girls team in PA can play on the boys team. They can then play in girls tournaments for qualifying for regionals and then states.

If the school has a girls team and they still opt to play for boys, they have to stay in the "boys track" re: districts, regionals, and states. (A girl my senior year considered doing this, for some unknown reason, as she hadn't ever qualified to go to states on the girls side yet.)

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

I think you're right about the fall/spring thing ...

Golf is a fall sport in PA. Apparently it's both in MA: fall for boys, spring for girls.

---

So to those of you who think the rule is "bad," what should the rule be? To let anyone who wants play in the "boys" championship and let them advance and win and everything, but limit the "girls" championship to just girls?

This isn't really the same thing as a "senior" event excluding players under the age of 50, or a junior event excluding an adult. This is straight up by gender. It's not an "open" division. It's a "boys" tournament.

Just playing a little devil's advocate. Maybe the rule will change in the future, but I'm not convinced it should be. The girl could help the team advance, but her individual championship is in the spring. I can see both sides of this one.

[Golfingdad]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

So to those of you who think the rule is "bad," what should the rule be? To let anyone who wants play in the "boys" championship and let them advance and win and everything, but limit the "girls" championship to just girls?

Either that, or just don't let her play in any of it.  It makes little sense that she's qualified enough to help the team, but not advance individually.  The fact that they permit her to play on the boys team pretty much negates their "this is only for boys" argument, doesn't it?

But I'd also have no problem just not permitting her to play on the boys team at all since her school and league also has a girls team.

All of that said, the way everybody handled it, and combined with @colin007's sentiments above, it's not really that big of a story.  Hopefully, they'll look into the rule and maybe at least consider a modification in the future, but it really doesn't matter.  Everybody knows she shot the lowest score, and that's really all that matters.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Either that, or just don't let her play in any of it.

I think they should do the second, in that case (not let her play at all, unless she foregoes her right to play in the girls side of things.)

Otherwise they're giving a girl two cracks at the nut. Slightly different nuts, I realize, but… still.

17 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

But I'd also have no problem just not permitting her to play on the boys team at all since her school and league also has a girls team.

That's the direction I'd lean. Pick one or the other; you can't do both.

Maybe they were trying to account for girls that didn't have a team (allowing them to play with boys), but didn't have the clause we have in PA where if you opt to play for a boys team and HAVE a girls team, you forego the right to play on the girls team or qualify for states on the girls side, etc.

17 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

All of that said, the way everybody handled it, and combined with @colin007's sentiments above, it's not really that big of a story.  Hopefully, they'll look into the rule and maybe at least consider a modification in the future, but it really doesn't matter.  Everybody knows she shot the lowest score, and that's really all that matters.

A few years ago another girl won a high school event against boys… but she wasn't playing from the same tees. This year a woman won the WNY PGA section Assistant championship… from different tees. I don't think that's fair or correct. But that's a tangent, anyway, and this girl played from the same tees.

[Pretzel]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

FWIW, that's not true here in PA. Both are fall sports here (boys, girls).

Girls who don't have a girls team in PA can play on the boys team. They can then play in girls tournaments for qualifying for regionals and then states.

If the school has a girls team and they still opt to play for boys, they have to stay in the "boys track" re: districts, regionals, and states. (A girl my senior year considered doing this, for some unknown reason, as she hadn't ever qualified to go to states on the girls side yet.)

That makes more sense then. In that case I can understand her I guess wanting a higher level of competition (at least in Colorado the girls high school golf is incredibly non-competitive), but it still seems like a weird way of going about it. High school golf isn't all that important at all to recruiters, so it's not like they would've cared (they'd much prefer to see her go crush the girl's regional and state tournaments).

Either way, it makes sense that the rules were followed. If they're in place (which I'm surprised they were), you need to follow them, but it just kind of baffles me why they would be in between the two extremes of "you can't play" and "you can play the same as the boys". It seems to me that the rule should either be she plays only with the girls or she can play with the boys under the same rules and conditions as them (obviously choosing only boys or girls, not both). 

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

A few years ago another girl won a high school event against boys… but she wasn't playing from the same tees. This year a woman won the WNY PGA section Assistant championship… from different tees. I don't think that's fair or correct. But that's a tangent, anyway, and this girl played from the same tees.

Yeah, the Golf Channel Am Tour (that I’m considering rejoining this season) doesn’t have a division for women so they must compete with the men, however, they get to play forward tees.  In that case, I kind of get it though.  They aren’t going to ever have enough women to form their own division, and they likely don’t want to scare away the very few that they do play by forcing them to play back with the men.

[nevets88]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

So to those of you who think the rule is "bad," what should the rule be

The points above make sense - about not going halfway wishy washy with the rules. Either don't let her play or let her play and award her the trophy if she wins. The intent was good but the result was messy although everyone dealt w/it best they could. 

[Pretzel]

3 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

They aren’t going to ever have enough women to form their own division, and they likely don’t want to scare away the very few that they do play by forcing them to play back with the men.

Don't have them compete against the men then, because the yardage difference is a large advantage. It's not fair or right to crown someone the "winner" of a tournament when they play from 500-1,000 yards shorter than the rest of the competitors.

It's not PC, but it is fact that there isn't a woman golfer out there who can compete with the best men on the planet. It's not fair, but that's why men and woman generally compete separately.