Tiger's Swing "Dip"

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Mr. Desmond said:

Is it a head dip or a squat that causes the head to dip?

Squat and spine flexion.

[mvmac]

9 hours ago, Keep It Simple said:

As an amateur and early days as a pro, Tiger stayed relatively level. 

This is from around 2000 at Butch's place.

Here's another one from around the same time, just put your thumb on the top of his head and you'll see that the head moves down.

7 hours ago, Keep It Simple said:

In 96-98 he appears to start dipping during the backswing.  Later on he stays more level in the backswing and dips more during the downswing which was the dip I was looking at.  But later again (after the Harmon years) he does start dipping in the backswing again.

He would have an "upload" move off the ball. Kind of as he was taking it back his head would move up and back, then around left arm parallel on the backswing his head would start to lower as his left side bend increased.

With Foley he got less and less of the upload but still moved the head down, kind of what I was referring to in terms of the sequencing of when it happens.

Good view of that upload move here,

 

6 hours ago, Mr. Desmond said:

Is it a head dip or a squat that causes the head to dip?

Knee flexion, anterior pelvic tilt (belt buckle tilts downward) and left pelvic tilt (left hip lower than the right). Abs are "stretched", not crunched.

[iacas]

22 hours ago, iacas said:

Here are three videos of swings from the 2017 HERO:

So, you were saying, @Veteran Golf Fan?

Still waiting on @Veteran Golf Fan here…

[Keep It Simple]

Thank you for the added info mvmac.  This is an interesting topic to me.  I have a strong natural tendency towards an athletic swing where one uses their flexibility and coordination to the utmost in powering their swing.  I believe that Tiger and Rory are the best examples of this.

[nevets88]

Dude, are we even watching the same video? The head dip is there. On the backswing and on the downswing. FACEPALM.

 

 

[iacas]

Where's @Veteran Golf Fan?

[lastings]

This thread is beyond amusing. 

[billchao]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Where's @Veteran Golf Fan?

Who's this amateur about to drive his club into the ground 10" behind the ball? 

Or is it "Fore right!" 

[Vinsk]

@Veteran Golf Fan Let me guess...just their biased opinion and it’s just the camera angle?

[Jack Watson]

GRF is a hot button modern term bandied about these days.  The ground is fixed.  Sure,  every player whose ever thrown a ball or swung a club has some form of grf.  IMO natural balance would be a better description because you don’t need to focus on it or try to do something to make it happen.  It’s part of all swings in which the player is standing on the ground whether you think of it or not.

If you suspend yourself from a harness and try to swing a club you will see what happens to yourself.  I think it was Sasha who jumped off the high dive in a TERRIBLE attempt to show things.  All you need is a harness.  But anyhow...

IMO golf instruction (99%) constantly seeks new terminology in order to confuse golfers and get more business.  The goal of any instruction should be to eliminate its own necessity but sadly we still live in a world based on money.

The golf swing is not crouch and jump.  That’s what happens in some athletes but quite unconsciously because in reality they are balancing the forces of the accelerating swing.  The proper focus is hands and clubhead,  over time the body responds,  it takes time and effort and is not some secret and some will always have more athletic ability than others,  but that’s what it I say imo.  

So that’s my anti misleading terminology rant but here is a point relative to the thread.,,

Heres a great golfer...

How many self absorbed online anal golfers would look at this is this were themselves and critique it?

LOOK AT ME THROWING THE RIGHT AEM AT IT AND NOT ROTATING

Seen it hundreds of times and the answer is that imitating a position from Hogan is like dancing.  It’s copying a position.  What matters is not exact body positions or numbers of buttcheeks or bent right arms.

what matters is SKILL

AGAIN SKILL

Skill in dance is making a correct movement.  Skill in golf is controlling the ball...imo the general online world has lost sight of this simple fact.  People think if they dance more like someone else this will increase their skill.

Are they thinking of dancing skill or golfing skill?

Food for thought.

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

GRF is a hot button modern term bandied about these days.  The ground is fixed.  Sure,  every player whose ever thrown a ball or swung a club has some form of grf.  IMO natural balance would be a better description because you don’t need to focus on it or try to do something to make it happen.  It’s part of all swings in which the player is standing on the ground whether you think of it or not.

I agree with almost everything stated in the quoted paragraph, and @david_wedzik and I have been on board for a few years now as having said that GRF is being given far too much emphasis… but…

Calling it "natural balance" is in no way a "better description." The truth of the matter is that you can use the ground more or less and it changes the amount of power that you have… and that it has little to do with actual "balance."

The horizontal or shear force GRF is the primary form of GRF, because the golf swing is still primarily a horizontally oriented rotation (I'm simplifying a bit here, as it's barely on topic…), while the vertical GRF is a rotational force about the golfer's COM that can add a little speed to the clubhead.

28 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

If you suspend yourself from a harness and try to swing a club you will see what happens to yourself.  I think it was Sasha who jumped off the high dive in a TERRIBLE attempt to show things.  All you need is a harness.  But anyhow...

It was Chris Como, and jumping in the air is better for two reasons: a) reduced friction, b) a harness could get in the way.

28 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

IMO golf instruction (99%) constantly seeks new terminology in order to confuse golfers and get more business.

That's not really what's happening in this case. While I'm on board with saying it's been overstated, it's something that continued to evolve our understanding of the golf swing. It helped us to understand why, for example, Tiger Woods would "snap his left knee" as a younger golfer when he wanted some extra distance.

28 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

The goal of any instruction should be to eliminate its own necessity but sadly we still live in a world based on money.

Talking about GRF is not an attempt to wring more money out of people, but I can see how you may think it is since you mistakenly think it's "natural balance."

28 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

The golf swing is not crouch and jump.

Sure it is.

It's more than that (including rotational stuff), of course, but the crouch and jump can help with the rotation the vertical plane.

28 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

That’s what happens in some athletes but quite unconsciously because in reality they are balancing the forces of the accelerating swing.

No.

28 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Skill in dance is making a correct movement.  Skill in golf is controlling the ball...imo the general online world has lost sight of this simple fact.  People think if they dance more like someone else this will increase their skill.

A better swing allows a golfer to better control the golf ball, thus, have more "skill."

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

IMO golf instruction (99%) constantly seeks new terminology in order to confuse golfers and get more business.  The goal of any instruction should be to eliminate its own necessity but sadly we still live in a world based on money.

I don't have a huge issue with it because at least instructors are talking about something that is actually happening rather than repeating what so-and-so player feels. Yes the pendulum got swung a little too far on one side but it's also great that there are instructors willing to learn, use technology to further their teaching.

I know a lot of golf instructors and none of them wake up in the morning looking for ways to deceive golfers out of money.

9 hours ago, iacas said:

Where's @Veteran Golf Fan?

Doesn't count unless it's Sunday with the Konica Minolta Bizhub and Peter Kostis doing the analysis 

[Jack Watson]

I like the natural balance term because of the bodies unconscious response to being out of balance.

If someone comes and pushes me and I am not expecting it,  it’s totally unconscious for the body to attempt to regain balance. 

As far as the Wayne D pivot compression it’s usually the lateral pelvis action.  Tiger in the past got into too much squat for a while.  I kinda agree with the fella who said it can bee too much dip.  I can’t define clearly where that point is however.  I think you have lateral pelvis action small head drop (good) and also big squat (maybe bad.)

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I like the natural balance term because of the bodies unconscious response to being out of balance.

Like it all you want; it's incorrect, misleading, or just flat out wrong. It has little to nothing to do with "balance." You can remain in balance and use little to no vertical GRF, or about the maximum available GRF.

Calling GRF "natural balance" makes me think you don't really know what GRF is.

30 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

If someone comes and pushes me and I am not expecting it,  it’s totally unconscious for the body to attempt to regain balance.

That's irrelevant.

Again, I don't think you really understand GRF, nor have you done one thing to walk back any of the bullshit you said above about golf instructors bilking people out of money.

30 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I kinda agree with the fella who said it can bee too much dip.  I can’t define clearly where that point is however.  I think you have lateral pelvis action small head drop (good) and also big squat (maybe bad.)

That's the thing… it's a catch-all for people who don't really understand the golf swing, and simultaneously a testament to Tiger's skill.

The way in which Tiger dips has varied. Measuring it by the "amount" is a fool's errand: he's hit incredibly good golf shots dipping "a ton" and some really bad golf shots with significantly less "dip." It's much more about how he "dips," and even when he does it incorrectly, the amount of skill he has to overcome it as often as he has done.

[Jack Watson]

I dunno who is narrating here but best to mute.  Tiger 2000 first in total driving and 17 in 2013.  Look at the differences in the swings.  I am not going to put out an opinion,  but they are very different.  Look at 2000 and the right hand releasing...Some say that’s a huge mistake?

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Tiger 2000 first in total driving and 17 in 2013.  Look at the differences in the swings.  I am not going to put out an opinion,  but they are very different.  Look at 2000 and the right hand releasing...Some say that’s a huge mistake?

So very wise of you to abandon the talk about the GRF.

As for the actual topic of this thread…

[iacas]