Is the USGA/R&A choking golf or keeping its integrity?

[wakefield724]

My friends and I have been talking about this. Do you feel the pga is choking golf from showing it’s true potential or is it helping by keeping its integrity? There are so many restrictions on club technology that there has been no major advances since graphite shafts. Should the Pga step out of the way of club engineers and allow us to see truly amazing innovation or should they keep the rules and keep golf the way it is? 

[iacas]

I suspect… you aren't actually asking about the PGA. Or even the PGA Tour.

And I don't think the USGA/R&A are "choking golf." At all.

[David in FL]

The incorrect reference to either the PGA or the PGA Tour notwithstanding, no major advances in club technology since graphite shafts?!  Really?!  

Titanium heads, graphite heads, adjustable heads, steel fiber shafts, hybrids, multi-compound grips...and on and on...

[Patch]

If you are saying that integrity is more important to the pga than allowing technology to run rampant, then I guess, in the grand scheme of things, there might be some choking going on. 

"Choking" is probably the wrong word to use. Keeping "competitive control" might be a better discription. 

If technology were allowed to take over, it would help the longer hitters on tour, more so than the shorter hitters. The longer hitters would still be longer than the shorter hitters in all facets of the game where distance mattered. 7000+ yard courses could be considered obsolete. 8500 could be the new competitive number. 

I figure in 500 years, professional golf is going to be totally different than what we have today. Technology will have completely taken over. The U S Open will be played on a computer screen. Galleries will be watching the game in indoor stadiums. The players might be sitting at home pushing buttons. Their caddy, instead carrying a bag,  will be carrying a wallet size black box. 

[wakefield724]

I was incorrect. I did mean the USGA rules. And I don’t really believe there has been much technology advance. Just things so that the marketing teams can sell more. A 10 year old drive and a driver today can drive 10 yards of each other. I remember watching driver vs driver this year on the golf channel (loved that show) and realized almost all the competitors ideas were shut down due to USGA rules. For example the wing on top of the driver to help with accuracy. It seems to me it’s restricting innovation 

[saevel25]

9 hours ago, wakefield724 said:

There are so many restrictions on club technology that there has been no major advances since graphite shafts.

Graphite shafts were introduced in the 1970's and started picking up in popularity in the 1980's.

Since the 1980's you saw the introduction of Titanium driver heads, multi-material driver heads, increase in MOI, increase in COR, the ability to adjust lie and loft, the ability to adjust the center of gravity, etc...

4 hours ago, wakefield724 said:

A 10 year old drive and a driver today can drive 10 yards of each other.

If you give me a 10 yard advantage then I will have a better chance of shooting a lower score.

There has been more than just the 10 yards. Over the past decade there has been massive strives in club fitting. Also, clubs are also more forgiving on off-center hits.

I think golf club manufactuers should just release non-conforming clubs. I think there could be a market for them since a lot of golfers wouldn't care.

 

[caniac6]

Skill still has to be a huge part of golf. If the USGA allows everything, we might as well just sit in the grill room, write down our score, and drink beer. Wait a minute! For some guys that would be the ultimate day at the course.

[wakefield724]

6 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

Skill still has to be a huge part of golf. If the USGA allows everything, we might as well just sit in the grill room, write down our score, and drink beer. Wait a minute! For some guys that would be the ultimate day at the course.

I agree. Skill does have to be a huge part. What creates the sport is working hard and seeing it pay off. But at some point we need to allow technology to take part. If the current USGA commission was in power the last 200 years we would still be using hickory sticks 

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, wakefield724 said:

But at some point we need to allow technology to take part. If the current USGA commission was in power the last 200 years we would still be using hickory sticks 

That is a terrible assumption.

1st, this USGA Commission might not even be the same commission that installed the .830 COR limit back in the early 2000's.
2nd, USGA has been around for just over 120 years.
3rd, you have no clue what the type of person the people on the commission would be if they lived 120 years ago. They might not care about equipment like they do today. The technological advancements has accelerated greatly. Pulling the brakes on it allows them time to see were they think things will go and how it will influence the game for good or bad.
4th, the USGA is out to protect competition and amateurism. The PGA decides to use USGA rules. They do so also for the sake of continuity. They are not interested in promoting the growth of technology for the sake of progress. This is good because it allows the competition to be played on a even level based on their ability and not based on how good their technology is.

 

[caniac6]

4 minutes ago, wakefield724 said:

I agree. Skill does have to be a huge part. What creates the sport is working hard and seeing it pay off. But at some point we need to allow technology to take part. If the current USGA commission was in power the last 200 years we would still be using hickory sticks 

I'm 63 years old, and I'm hitting the ball as long, or longer, than I was when I was 30. Back then, I was using wood woods and blades. The balls used to curve a lot more, so a slice or hook was a lot worse. I currently play from about 6700. Back in the day, I was probably playing around 6000 to 6200. There have been tons of advancements in technology in the amount of time (50 years) that I have been playing. I think the biggest challenge the USGA has is to not allow technology to go too far. I really think a lot of people think the USGA has allowed too much technology into the game.

[phillyk]

6 hours ago, wakefield724 said:

I was incorrect. I did mean the USGA rules. And I don’t really believe there has been much technology advance. Just things so that the marketing teams can sell more. A 10 year old drive and a driver today can drive 10 yards of each other. I remember watching driver vs driver this year on the golf channel (loved that show) and realized almost all the competitors ideas were shut down due to USGA rules. For example the wing on top of the driver to help with accuracy. It seems to me it’s restricting innovation 

It's not so much the distance on centered hits that has grown but the misses.  They are going much further and straighter than 10yrs ago.

At least there are people wanting more innovation instead of cutting down innovation because of hitting too far.  It seems that if the USGA is in the middle, they are in a good spot.  There has to be a line drawn between skill and what the equipment can provide for you.

[NM Golf]

6 hours ago, wakefield724 said:

I was incorrect. I did mean the USGA rules. And I don’t really believe there has been much technology advance. Just things so that the marketing teams can sell more. A 10 year old drive and a driver today can drive 10 yards of each other. I remember watching driver vs driver this year on the golf channel (loved that show) and realized almost all the competitors ideas were shut down due to USGA rules. For example the wing on top of the driver to help with accuracy. It seems to me it’s restricting innovation 

It's not just distance, drivers of today allow, through adjustability, a player to dial in a setting that can really help with accuracy. And maybe theres not a whole lot of difference in the last 10 years but look at what we were using 20 years ago or even 30 years ago. HUGE differences in technology. Not sure how you can look at the past 30 years and say how anyone has stifled technology.

1 hour ago, wakefield724 said:

I agree. Skill does have to be a huge part. What creates the sport is working hard and seeing it pay off. But at some point we need to allow technology to take part. If the current USGA commission was in power the last 200 years we would still be using hickory sticks 

Not sure what you are wanting in a golf club? Do you want clubs to do all the work and take the skill of swinging the club out of it? I take it you are a fan of Al Czervik's putter in Caddyshack?

 

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, caniac6 said:

Skill still has to be a huge part of golf. If the USGA allows everything, we might as well just sit in the grill room, write down our score, and drink beer. Wait a minute! For some guys that would be the ultimate day at the course.

The point of the game IS to develop the skills needed to play at the level of your choice. 

1 hour ago, wakefield724 said:

I agree. Skill does have to be a huge part. What creates the sport is working hard and seeing it pay off. But at some point we need to allow technology to take part. If the current USGA commission was in power the last 200 years we would still be using hickory sticks 

Allowing technology to make the game too much easier would destroy, or at least seriously damage the fabric of the game.  The rules have long been modified, and  are still being modified to address some of the issues, but the point is still to use your skill to put the ball in the hole with the fewest number of strokes.  This is one area where golf can correlate to a game like football or baseball.  The governing bodies have controlled the equipment in those games too, and for the same reason - to keep the game recognizable and familiar to those who play and watch it.  They modify the rules when they feel the need for some modernization, but the equipment and the playing field changes very little. 

Golf equipment has changed more in the last 25 years than just about any other sport that's been around for any length of time.  25 years ago I was playing a balata ball (usually good for about 9 holes before it was beaten out of shape, and then only if I didn't cut a smile on it before I beat it to death).  I was using a TaylorMade driver with a head as small as what my 5 wood has now.  Clubs were not adjustable.  Graphite shafts were just becoming more common, and mostly in woods, or seniors and women's clubs.  Men still stuck with steel in irons, and my TM driver had a 43" True Temper Dynamic Gold steel shaft.  There were no lasers or GPS.  Crappy 2 wheeled pull carts were the norm -  I'm not sure I ever saw a 3 wheeler back in the early to mid 90's.  Greens were typically a lot slower than they are today - turf research funded by the USGA is in large part responsible for courses being able to sustain greens at today's speeds.

A lot of the rules on equipment are centered around allowable performance parameters and the shape and size of clubs.  Within those parameters, there is still room for experimentation and development.  The limits are specifically for the purpose of ensuring that the player's skill remains the primary key to quality of play.  I don't see anything wrong with that limitation.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Fourputt

[GolfLug]

12 hours ago, wakefield724 said:

My friends and I have been talking about this. Do you feel the pga is choking golf from showing it’s true potential or is it helping by keeping its integrity? There are so many restrictions on club technology that there has been no major advances since graphite shafts. Should the Pga step out of the way of club engineers and allow us to see truly amazing innovation or should they keep the rules and keep golf the way it is? 

I believe you are overestimating how much more undiscovered technology there is that will increase efficient transfer of leverage from to club to ball and repeatability. There is some, but not a persimmon to steel to graphite level magnitude change.  

Tennis is a good analogy. Once graphite frames introduced and improved strings, harmonized weight distribution etc. were milked (which all improves power transfer and repeat-ability), there ain't much left. 

Of course if you are saying that there new leverage like adding gunpowder to the club face should be allowed, then, well, yeah.. 

Edited January 18, 2018 by GolfLug

[NJpatbee]

I believe that the USGA has established reasonable limits on equipment (including balls) that protect the game but allow for some game improvement.  I am 66 and with a 460cc Titanium Driver and bunch of hybrids I am still fine playing up to 6200 yards.  But to allow unrestricted equipment changes that allow ridiculous distances would undermine the game and most of the golf courses that exist.  Fred Couples average drive today as a Senior is 20 yards longer than when he won the Masters, so yes, the equipment today is longer.  But it is not off the charts especially given the athleticism of many on the PGA Tour, advanced swing analysis, and custom fitting of clubs.  Overall I believe we are at a good place with our equipment limits but if you want to play non-conforming equipment and not keep an official handicap knock yourself out.

[WUTiger]

12 hours ago, wakefield724 said:

There are so many restrictions on club technology that there has been no major advances since graphite shafts. 

Where have you and your friends been? Plenty of advances allowed by USGA/R&A...

• Variable amounts of taper in golf grips, different materials in composite grips.
• Four-piece and even five-piece golf balls.
• Flighted golf shafts; Miyazaki complex shaft ratings beyond simple flex and kick-point metrics

• Cleveland wedge fitter module; Ping putting stroke app
• Progressive center of gravity positioning in clubheads; Vokey as example.
• A wide variety of special wedge shafts

I think you boys need to find a new sports bar!

[iacas]

2 hours ago, caniac6 said:

Skill still has to be a huge part of golf. If the USGA allows everything, we might as well just sit in the grill room, write down our score, and drink beer.

Yeah.

2 hours ago, wakefield724 said:

I agree. Skill does have to be a huge part. What creates the sport is working hard and seeing it pay off. But at some point we need to allow technology to take part. If the current USGA commission was in power the last 200 years we would still be using hickory sticks 

I don't know what you're talking about. You cray, man.

Also, it's somewhat funny how this topic and the one below were started at about the same time: