Rules Situation: Ball Rests on Twig Over Hole

[Nutsmacker]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

The player scores a 3 (assuming they can make a <1-inch putt). This is a relatively simple ruling in the end.

The ball isn't resting against the flagstick (17-4), so you don't get to remove or straighten the flagstick so it falls into the hole.

The ball doesn't meet the definition of the word "holed," so it's not. Not only is it not below the top level of the hole, it's not entirely within the circumference, either.

You replace the ball (whether you mark it first or remove the twig first is irrelevant) on the lip and tap in for a three.

There's no penalty because you can accidentally move your ball while removing a loose impediment on the putting green.

Wind and gravity and water have nothing to do with this, unless by the time you get there the wind has shaken the flagstick enough that the twig moves enough for the ball to fall into the hole.

They don't. It's just bad luck.

Not quite the same situation, really. It was resting against the flagstick.

Two of the people I asked today in the USGA and one in the PGA - and these are people that teach the rules seminars we know and love - agreed with what I wrote above.

P.S. The small text # in the earlier post I made (post #5) was a topic ID #: 82576, which is this topic:

Well, that sucks.  The good thing is that this is unlikely to occur.  However, now that you have planted this thought in my head, I am going to be worried that there is a twig on the cup every time I am hitting an approach shot.  

Would it be against the rules if a player put a twig on the cup to attempt to sabotage the following opponents? 

[HJJ003]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

No.

For example, see Decision 16/3.

That ruling seems even more punitive than this one, because the ball could be entirely in the side of the hole, but if some of it is above the level of the green, it's not holed. This ball in this case isn't even entirely "inside" the hole.

Wow! Sometimes I think I have a great understanding of the rules in this game and then I learn something like this. Great thread. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Nutsmacker said:

Would it be against the rules if a player put a twig on the cup to attempt to sabotage the following opponents? 

Find the rule it violates… I suspect you won't.

I'd say it's such a gross violation of etiquette that I'd likely DQ the player were I the committee.

[Piz]

Just saying that one is better off, when in doubt, to accept an additional stroke.  You can look it up later.

[Fourputt]

Well I came late to the party, but I did work out the right ruling before reading the responses in the thread.  Just one of those freaky things that can happen when you play a game that is competed on a potentially random playing field.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Fourputt

[Rulesman]

5 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Well I came late to the party, but I did work out the right ruling before reading the responses in the thread.  Just one of those freaky things that can happen when you play a game that is competed on a potentially random playing field.

 

Unless the picture shows a ball where the bottom of the ball is touching the ground outside the hole and can therefore be replaced, the 'right' ruling hasn't yet been confirmed by either the USGA or the R&A.

[boogielicious]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

There's no penalty because you can accidentally move your ball while removing a loose impediment on the putting green.

This is where I messed up. I didn't know the loose impediment on the green had no penalty! 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Unless the picture shows a ball where the bottom of the ball is touching the ground outside the hole and can therefore be replaced, the 'right' ruling hasn't yet been confirmed by either the USGA or the R&A.

I spoke with several people as I indicated.

The ball isn’t holed, nor is it completely within the circumference of the hole, and 16/3 says a ball not touching the grass on top can still be considered not holed.

I’m not even sure I’d agree with your leaf example, though I could see how that’s an exceptional case.

[Rulesman]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

I spoke with several people as I indicated.

Well the R&A have this morning informed me that they and the USGA are discussing the two scenarios. Ball over the edge and ball not over the edge.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Well the R&A have this morning informed me that they and the USGA are discussing the two scenarios. Ball over the edge and ball not over the edge.

It’s not within the circumference nor is it resting against the flagstick.

My USGA folks indicated it was an unfortunate but easy ruling.

It is also at rest.

[klineka]

5 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Unless the picture shows a ball where the bottom of the ball is touching the ground outside the hole and can therefore be replaced, the 'right' ruling hasn't yet been confirmed by either the USGA or the R&A.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, klineka said:

@Rulesman seems to be operating under the perverse idea that if the center of the bottom of the ball is inside the diameter of the hole, the ball is holed, despite evidence to the contrary in a published Decision where NONE of the ball has to even be touching the green surface and yet still isn't considered holed.

I realize that in not naming our sources this is a bit of he said, she said stuff, but I'm sticking with the three (now four) people I've asked all of whom indicated that it was a relatively easy decision.

[chspeed]

IMO, this is one of those relatively rare situations in which the ruling is necessary, but essentially unfair.

I see the rules as trying to cover as many situations as possible while maximizing fairness and minimizing subjective judgement. For instance, a rule that said something to the effect of "if you are certain the ball was going to go in the hole without the interference of the loose impediment..." would be too subjective. While if the ball is completely in the circumference of the hole, it becomes more objective that the ball would have dropped without the interference.

Mostly, the rules do a good job making things fair, but not always.

[iacas]

@chspeed that’s one definition of “fair.”

Another definition is that everyone and every situation is treated the same, and the rules are thus completely fair. They don’t discriminate based on gender, shirt color, handicap index, etc.

[chspeed]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

@chspeed that’s one definition of “fair.”

Another definition is that everyone and every situation is treated the same, and the rules are thus completely fair. They don’t discriminate based on gender, shirt color, handicap index, etc.

True. I use the equitable in that situations, which is also important. I like to think that golf should be fair (by the definition I used above), not just equitable. If you hit a good shot, you should be rewarded properly. I don't think it would be much fun if everyone was punished equitably for good shots.

[iacas]

It is fair and equitable.

Everyone plays under the same rules = fair.

Like situations are treated alike = equitable.

Your version of “fair” includes a great deal of judgment.

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, chspeed said:

I don't think it would be much fun if everyone was punished equitably for good shots.

Rules are for play and competition and handicap, so that is fair, anyone else in the same situation would also have to accept a tap in birdie opportunity.  If I'm just dinking around having fun, I might have to write down a 3.  But I still know that was a good shot that would have eagled on a tidier green.

 

the only argument you might be able to make about subjective 'unfairness' or not, is if you were in a competition, you could bemoan the fact that the stick wasn't there for the other players in the tourney after you left that hole (because of course you picked up a bit as a nice guy).  but that would be petty.....it's the planet, it's sometimes messy. 

Now if you found out later that someone purposely stuck the stick there, that would be unfair, but I suspect you'd have no recourse regardless.

[rehmwa]

14 hours ago, iacas said:

You replace the ball (whether you mark it first or remove the twig first is irrelevant) on the lip and tap in for a three

 

I can 3 putt from there.  (But I'm working on that)

 

Edit:  Sorry - the automerge failed me

Edited February 23, 2018 by rehmwa