Is Phil Mickelson Going Nuts?: Hitting a moving ball at US Open

[DeadMan]

15 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

This is in line with signing for the wrong score. He could have ended up with a totally different score, but he was selfish and purposely broke a rule. 

He was putting for a 6, right? And he ended up with a 10. No way of knowing for sure, obviously, but I think it's pretty unlikely he scores worse than a 10 if the ball ends up off the front of the green. If he takes an unplayable, he probably ends up with a 9.

I totally understand your instinct and argument here, and I think it would be valid for most amateur golfers. I don't think it's really valid for a tour player.

Phil lost his head and was being petulant, but I don't think the result is that he saved himself any strokes by doing what he did.

Edited June 19, 2018 by DeadMan

[saevel25]

14 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I totally understand your instinct and argument here, and I think it would be valid for most amateur golfers. I don't think it's really valid for a tour player.

Phil lost his head and was being petulant, but I don't think the result is that he saved himself any strokes by doing what he did.

It should be valid, we all play by the same rules. Tour players should not be treated differently.

[Elmer]

50 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

He took the wrong penalty. He should have been disqualified. It was flippant and disrespectful. Golf is about accepting the good and bad bounces. Do you want to see every golfer run up to a putt and whack it before it rolls off the green? What if he was in contention, or trying to make the weekend, and the difference was one stroke. Lets say it takes him four strokes to get up and down. How do you think the golfer he just bumped out should feel? It was disrespectful to every golfer who plays golf the right way.

This is in line with signing for the wrong score. He could have ended up with a totally different score, but he was selfish and purposely broke a rule.

"He" didn't take the wrong penalty. He took a 2 stroke penalty for breaking the rules. it is up to the rules officials or PGA to disqualify him. 

We can have an endless discussion of "what if"....
However haven't there been golfers who lost a tournament because someone called in a penalty, when there is no evidence the golfer was aware an infraction had taken place.
We accept that, we would accept this. Penalty is a penalty.

[DeadMan]

49 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It should be valid, we all play by the same rules. Tour players should not be treated differently.

No, you missed my point. Phil didn't gain an advantage by doing what he did. He made a 10 instead of what was probably going to be a 9. If he's signing for a wrong score like you were saying, it's for the higher score, which doesn't result in a DQ.

The rules would apply equally to us all, because everybody gets a 2 stroke penalty there.

[rehmwa]

11 minutes ago, Elmer said:

"He" didn't take the wrong penalty. He took a 2 stroke penalty for breaking the rules. it is up to the rules officials or PGA to disqualify him. 
 

If Phil had a change of heart, then it would have been more of a WD and statement that the rules officials got it wrong.  Which he chose not to do - leaving the rules to the rules guys.  For those that disagree with their determination (it's a big group) - next step, then, is up to the rules committee to get rid of the loophole. 

I'm trying to learn something here hoping it's close, but since I didn't copy verbatim I'm sure there there'll be constructive commentary:

1.2 - don't stop any ball in motion (or change the course except to care for it) - example would be kicking a ball, knocking an obstruction out of the way of a moving ball, stopping a ball from rolling into a bunker with your foot or flagstick, dropping stick on someone's putting line. etc etc (Damn rule has the word 'intent' in it....stop that).  2 strokes, or if it's 'serious' with 'significant' impact - then DQ (there you go, two more subjective words)

4.5 - don't make a stroke at a moving ball (some exceptions) - 2 strokes

So it's 2 strokes or a DQ (depends on 'serious' and 'significant') had Phil stopped the ball with his foot or whatever (1.2).  but the USGA rules guys made the argument that since it was during a stroke so 2 strokes (4.5) - that takes DQ off the table

fix that little loop hole....I not a fan of the USGA interpretation here, needs fixed

as usual get the words "intent" and "serious" and "significant" out of there and just have a penalty for action instead of thought for touching a ball in motion - then be specific about exceptions (I could just see a guy purposely putting into a competitor to get him DQ'd....it's a wry comment not serious for the obtuse in the crowd - you know who you are, maybe you don't......)

 

4 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

He made a 10 instead of what was probably going to be a 9. If he's signing for a wrong score like you were saying, it's for the higher score, which doesn't result in a DQ.

You're contending that under 1.2 it still would be a 2 stroke and not a DQ because he forgot he could have just played unplayable and gotten a better result?

[DeadMan]

10 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

You're contending that under 1.2 it still would be a 2 stroke and not a DQ because he forgot he could have just played unplayable and gotten a better result?

No. That's irrelevant here, because the USGA stated that 14.5 applies. And 14.5 doesn't allow for a DQ for a serious breach. All I'm saying is that with the 2 stroke penalty, Phil didn't score any lower than he would have if he had let the ball keep rolling. That's in response to @saevel25 implying that Phil signed for a lower score.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Elmer said:

To me, he broke a rule and took the penalty.

I also do not find it goes against the "foundation of the game". It goes against the rules. golfers break rules all the time, knowingly and unknowingly and they get penalized.

No, they don't. If they hit the ball out of bounds, they aren't "breaking the rules" until they play from where it crossed the OB line or something. Otherwise they're playing within the Rules.

What Phil did was a clear breach of the Rules. That almost never happens on the PGA Tour, and far, far less often is it so blatant.

The foundation of the game is to play the ball from the teeing ground with successive strokes into the hole, playing it from where it lies. 1-1 says "The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules." Phil didn't do that. He didn't play the ball from where it "lie" and he breached 1-2, 14-5, or both.

Penalties don't mean a golfer has "broken the rules." Again, if you hit one in a water hazard, you're opting to take the additional stroke to extricate your ball. You're not willfully doing something that you're then penalized after the fact for doing.

What Phil did is in no way equivalent to a player adding a "penalty stroke." Those penalties are more like withdrawing your money from a CD early ("substantial penalty for early withdrawal"), not like robbing a bank to get your CD money back.

2 hours ago, Elmer said:

Of all the cheating that goes on in golf, is this the worst thing to happen on a golf course.

Nobody's arguing that point! That this is some sort of earth-shattering thing with global ramifications that will affect everyone's great grandchildren.

2 hours ago, Elmer said:

I have to imagine a golfer somewhere at sometime, took an unplayable and penalty because they dont want to hit the ball as it lie. How is this different than using the rules?

See above. It's different.

2 hours ago, Elmer said:

Once again there are plenty who cheat and break rules in golf and never say a word and never get caught.

On the PGA Tour? In a major conducted by the ruling body of the game for our country?

No.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

He took the wrong penalty.

He took the penalty they gave him.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

It was disrespectful to every golfer who plays golf the right way.

I agree a bit with that.

1 hour ago, DeadMan said:

He was putting for a 6, right?

5. Bogey. The initial putt, the slapped putt was his sixth.

[fishgolf]

Can anyone ever recall another PGA golfer purposely doing what Phil did?  In a way, if he figured doing this (taking a 2 shot penalty) was his best odds at finishing the hole with the lowest score, perhaps it's pure genius. Without a rule change, this might catch on - I could probably shave off a couple strokes per round if I was fast enough.

[iacas]

We've been over all of these things a few times @fishgolf.

2 minutes ago, fishgolf said:

Can anyone ever recall another PGA golfer purposely doing what Phil did?

Yes. John Daly. Kirk Triplett. Neither swatted the ball back toward the hole.

2 minutes ago, fishgolf said:

In a way, if he figured doing this (taking a 2 shot penalty) was his best odds at finishing the hole with the lowest score, perhaps it's pure genius.

He didn't know what the rule was. He had no idea.

[upndown21]

I cannot believe this has gotten 11 pages deep. Y'all must be a blast to hang out with.

If what he did offends you then maybe you should lighten up a bit. Personally the only WD I would like to see is the USGA from butchering golf courses and tournaments on an annual basis..... and maybe Joe Buck too (baseball okay, but his golf commentary is turrible).

[fishgolf]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

We've been over all of these things a few times @fishgolf.

Yes. John Daly. Kirk Triplett. Neither swatted the ball back toward the hole.

He didn't know what the rule was. He had no idea.

Missed those posts about Daly and Triplett, thanks.  So no, no one as blatant as this.  That does say a lot about the action when you consider the long history of the game and number of events.  As to not knowing the rule, yeah, not likely. 

[iacas]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/us-open-2018-phil-mickelsons-actionsand-wordsat-shinnecock-will-be-his-cross-to-bear

Quote

“I don’t believe he really knows that rule,” the USGA’s former chief executive David Fay said on Fox of Mickelson. “I think his explanation made things complicated. I would’ve thought long and hard about it and after hearing everything I’ve heard I would’ve lobbied for disqualification.”

Votes on the poll (https://poll.pollcode.com/84985847_result?v) are 78% "Yes" and only 22% "No" for "Should the USGA have disqualified Phil Mickelson for a serious breach of etiquette?"

That's not even 1-2 talk; that's 33-7 talk.

More here: https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/6/17/phil-mickelson-roundup-and-poll-to-dq-or-not-to-dq.

[krupa]

8 minutes ago, upndown21 said:

I cannot believe this has gotten 11 pages deep. Y'all must be a blast to hang out with.

If what he did offends you then maybe you should lighten up a bit. Personally the only WD I would like to see is the USGA from butchering golf courses and tournaments on an annual basis..... and maybe Joe Buck too (baseball okay, but his golf commentary is turrible).

What Phil did was unprecedented. Why wouldn't it be discussed at length on a golf forum?

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, upndown21 said:

I cannot believe this has gotten 11 pages deep. Y'all must be a blast to hang out with.

If what he did offends you then maybe you should lighten up a bit.

Who here has said it offended them? Nobody? Keep arguing against the straw men, man.

9 minutes ago, krupa said:

What Phil did was unprecedented. Why wouldn't it be discussed at length on a golf forum?

Plus that. It's a golf forum. This was news.

[The Hook Meister]

Phil knows better bit that was probably just a little frustration. That course and the wind was brutal. No excuses he was wrong to hit a moving ball.

[BaconNEggs]

Not cunning like a fox, since as discussed, he could’ve just let the ball stop, and replace it at the original spot and take a one stroke penalty.

He didn’t understand the rules (and in doing what he did he took arguably the WORST option available to him), he breached basic etiquette, and then he lied about it after the fact. 

@The Hook Meister

I don’t think people are nearly as upset about what he did as they are about his bullshit excuses and lies after the fact. Had he owned up to frustration and said he let his emotions get the best of him and he’ll take whatever penalty the USGA gives to him, I don’t think we’d be here at all. 

[sjduffers]

I am late to this discussion, obviously. While I agree that taking an unplayable and re-doing the putt would have been a better course of action and would have saved some strokes to boot too, as the worst would have been an 8 (bogey putt down the hill, penalty for 6, nudge it by for 7 and tap-in for 8), I wouldn't be so harsh on Phil.

First off, whether deliberate or not (obviously this infraction was deliberate), rule 14-5 is not written with intent in mind. It is a fact-based rule, the kind that @iacas loves to talk about: the Rules of Golf are written based on observable facts, not on intent. Right? You have made that point many times.

So, what is different here? You, and many others, don't like the black eye do the game and to the USGA. I'd say blame Mike Davis for that, who mistakingly believes that the score of an US Open should be par or worse. He screwed up many times already, and to me, this is one time too many and he needs to go. The setup was unfair to the Saturday afternoon players compared to the morning ones, when it is well known that wind blows in the afternoon in that part of the country. He even overreacted a bit the next day, moving 11 pin locations to the middle of the greens and watering to the point that balls were stopping almost immediately. Luckily for the members at Shinnecock Hills, the greens were apparently not destroyed by the USGA like they were at Chambers Bay...

Many players protested, some in more subtle manners than others (e.g. Enrik Stenson or Zach Johnson vs Ian Poulter), and Phil got exasperated and protested in his own terms, at hole 13th with that buffoonery, and later on by making an uphill putt up and above the hole and curling it back down instead of aiming at the hole, sort of what they do for fun at the Par 3 contest and the Masters. It was a shitshow, yes. Brought to you by Mike Davis and the USGA.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

First off, whether deliberate or not (obviously this infraction was deliberate), rule 14-5 is not written with intent in mind. It is a fact-based rule, the kind that @iacas loves to talk about: the Rules of Golf are written based on observable facts, not on intent. Right? You have made that point many times.

Phil also "took an action with the intent to influence the motion of a ball in play." That's the language in 1-2.

Also, we haven't really discussed "intent" much, but this is one of those situations where the action makes completely clear the intent. He wasn't trying to swat a bug near his ball or anything else; he was trying to hit the ball. His actions belied his intent, sans guesswork and/or mind-reading.

17 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

I'd say blame Mike Davis for that, who mistakingly believes that the score of an US Open should be par or worse.

That's not the topic here.