Dustin Johnson Hits Jack's Old Clubs

[JonMA1]

I think if anything, this tells me that Jack was an incredible athlete. Given time to practice with it, I’m sure DJ would be hitting a bit further, but the idea that Jack might have been this close to DJ is a bit of a surprise to me.

[Pretzel]

13 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I think if anything, this tells me that Jack was an incredible athlete. Given time to practice with it, I’m sure DJ would be hitting a bit further, but the idea that Jack might have been this close to DJ is a bit of a surprise to me.

Jack wasn't anywhere close to as long as DJ using the same clubs though.

Jack's driving distance in 1980 averaged 269 yards. His average in 1967, according to stats gathered by IBM from 11 of the 34 events, was 276 yards. Dustin Johnson, with absolutely no practice using Jack's clubs, hit the ball almost 15 yards further. Both you and I agree that if DJ practiced with those clubs he'd hit it longer.

Even if DJ only ever managed to average a 290 yard drive with the persimmon, meaning he never really hit it much further with practice, it would be a 24 yard difference from his current 314 yard driving average. This would imply the difference in distance between old and new drivers would be 24 yards, meaning Jack's new driving average would be 300 yards in 1976 (if he had new equipment) or 293 yards in 1980. Certainly no slouch, but still 15 yards behind DJ on average. It only gets worse if we factor in that DJ's distance might increase if he practiced with those clubs.

Jack was definitely in good shape compared to a number of his contemporaries though, and he was the DJ of his time who won in part by hitting the ball longer than his competitors. The levels of fitness of modern golfers is just so far above that of the past ever since Tiger showed that it can make a difference. Most top golfers nowadays have very regular exercise routines, whereas golfers of days gone by (Gary Player excluded) just exercised by going out and playing golf.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Pretzel

[billchao]

2 hours ago, Keep It Simple said:

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/08/jack-nicklaus-long-drive-pga-championship-louis-oosthuizen-bubba-watson

341yds to be exact.🤪

 

300+ drives are yesterday's news. Today's all about 400+ 😉

https://www.golf.com/tour-news/2018/03/24/dustin-johnson-unleashes-489-yard-drive-match-play

2 hours ago, ghalfaire said:

I wouldn't think anyone would believe that today's players are as accomplished at ball striking as those of decades ago players.

They are. Players from past eras didn't have a lost secret of ballstriking.

1 hour ago, Jeremie Boop said:

So, DJ hits his modern driver 390?

Nope. 490 😜

[MacDutch]

So you say a guy with a much lower level of fitness is only a bit shorter then a top fit guy now?

Think the comparison is not fair. Jack didn’t have the knowledge how to become that fit. And there was no need, the competition wasn’t that fit either. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by MacDutch

[p1n9183]

Nicklaus was just 15 yards shorter using balata than Dustin with proV1. Dustin it´s one of the longest from the tee in this era. My respect to Nicklaus power.
But this is just about distance.. what about accuracy with this clubs? How DJ will performe with them in competition? will never know..    

[billchao]

30 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Jack wasn't anywhere close to as long as DJ using the same clubs though.

Jack's driving distance in 1980 averaged 269 yards. His average in 1967, according to stats gathered by IBM from 11 of the 34 events, was 276 yards. Dustin Johnson, with absolutely no practice using Jack's clubs, hit the ball almost 15 yards further. Both you and I agree that if DJ practiced with those clubs he'd hit it longer.

Even if DJ only ever managed to average a 290 yard drive with the persimmon, meaning he never really hit it much further with practice, it would be a 24 yard difference from his current 314 yard driving average. This would imply the difference in distance between old and new drivers would be 24 yards, meaning Jack's new driving average would be 300 yards in 1976 (if he had new equipment) or 293 yards in 1980. Certainly no slouch, but still 15 yards behind DJ on average. It only gets worse if we factor in that DJ's distance might increase if he practiced with those clubs.

Jack was definitely in good shape compared to a number of his contemporaries though, and he was the DJ of his time who won in part by hitting the ball longer than his competitors. The levels of fitness of modern golfers is just so far above that of the past ever since Tiger showed that it can make a difference. Most top golfers nowadays have very regular exercise routines, whereas golfers of days gone by (Gary Player excluded) just exercised by going out and playing golf.

Jack played with Tour Balatas, not 2018 Pro V1s. You're under-adjusting Jack's modern comparison distance numbers by some factor nobody really knows.

[turtleback]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

You are correct. But this was referring to the fact that some people have literally said ‘The players of today don’t have the talent the old guys had...they couldn’t break par with the clubs from those days.’ Which of course simply isn’t true.

Too bad that some people feel compelled to call Jack a liar in their attempt to bolster Jack's position.  Jack clearly and unequivocally contradicted every point they try to make about equipment advantaging Tiger yet they persist.  Sad, really.

56 minutes ago, billchao said:

Jack played with Tour Balatas, not 2018 Pro V1s. You're under-adjusting Jack's modern comparison distance numbers by some factor nobody really knows.

Those weren't Pro V1's that Tiger was hitting into places never seen before at the '97 Masters.  The equipment that Tiger played with early in his career was a lot closer to what Jack played than to what Dustin plays now.

[billchao]

7 minutes ago, turtleback said:

Those weren't Pro V1's that Tiger was hitting into places never seen before at the '97 Masters.  The equipment that Tiger played with early in his career was a lot closer to what Jack played than to what Dustin plays now.

Why can't we have a discussion about Jack without bringing up Tiger?

I'll play along, though. In case anyone forgot or doesn't know, this is what Tiger played at the '97 Masters:

Quote

Driver: King Cobra Deep Face* (True Temper Dynamic Gold X100 shaft), 9 degrees

3-wood: Titleist PT 15 (True Temper Dynamic Gold X100 shaft), 15 degrees

Irons: Mizuno MP-29 (2-4; True Temper Dynamic Gold X100 shafts), MP-14 (5-PW; True Temper Dynamic Gold X100 shafts).

Wedges: Cleveland 588 RTG (56 and 60 degrees; True Temper Dynamic Gold X100 shafts)

Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport TeI3

Ball: Titleist Professional 90

Source: https://www.pgatour.com/equipmentreport/2017/04/04/tiger-woods-unique-irons-1997-masters.html

Yes he played the Professional 90 ball, but it wasn't that big of an advancement distance-wise over Tour Balata. Tiger hit ball far.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, 3jacker said:

The guys that argue the old persimmon woods and balata balls weren't more difficult to use tend to be those that have never played with them.

Who says that???

[Keep It Simple]

Here are some world long drive champions hitting Persimmon drivers.

 

[brocks]

9 hours ago, 3jacker said:

The guys that argue the old persimmon woods and balata balls weren't more difficult to use tend to be those that have never played with them.

That's because they're only six years old.  Nobody older than that would say such a thing --- except someone trying to set up an obvious straw man.

It's pretty hard to find anything said in favor of Jack today (other than 18 > 14 --- an analogous argument is never made about Hagen) that wasn't said in the 60's about Jones, or even in the 20's about Tom Morris.  People who grew up as fans of Player X just hate to admit that anybody could be better. 

Heck, I'm a WSU alum, and I say the jury is still out on whether Peyton Manning is better than Ryan Leaf.

Here's what an old Scottish pro said about Jones in the 1920's:
"I knew and played with Tom Morris, and he was every bit as good as Jones. Young Tom had to play with a gutty ball, and you could not make a mistake and get away with it. This rubber-cored ball we have now only requires a tap and it runs a mile."

Recalling that incident in 1960, Jones wrote: "On a properly conditioned course today, it is almost impossible to get a bad lie," and went on to say how the steel shaft changed the game completely from the hickory shafts he had to use.

And Arnie lamented in the 60's that the young guys weren't hungry enough, didn't need to win, because they got so much money from endorsements.

So there is nothing new under the sun.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by brocks

[ghalfaire]

10 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

So, DJ hits his modern driver 390?

I seem to have left the "not" out of the ball striking statement.  I certainly believe today's players are as accomplish as those of decades ago when it comes go ball striking. . 

As to how far Dustin J can hit a driver his average is 314 yards I believe.  But that certainly not the limit of his capability or or anywhere near his longest drives.  Although I admit 390 might be a over statement.  I thought the comment about the ball may be more appropriate to the distance, at least if we are trying to compare today's player with old equipment to the years ago players with that equipment.  And yes I believe like @Vinsk that today's players would still be breaking par with old equipment.  Would their scoring be as good, who knows?  Probably not but maybe better than the players of the day. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by ghalfaire

[Hardspoon]

Neat video in the OP.  Is anyone surprised that Dustin Johnson hits the ball further than Jack Nicklaus with the same equipment?  Ha.

[turtleback]

10 hours ago, billchao said:

Why can't we have a discussion about Jack without bringing up Tiger?

Because Tiger comes the closest to bridging the equipment gap between Jack's era and now.  Dustin never played with anything like the equipment Jack did, but Tiger did.  This is a thread about generational change in equipment, so a guy who actually experienced a lot of the change is very relevant, IMO.

[iacas]

Point of clarification for some of those who were looking to compare 290 to 276 or whatever:

 

[billchao]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

Point of clarification for some of those who were looking to compare 290 to 276 or whatever:

 

Yea I read in one article that they were carry numbers, but I didn't want to post uncorroborated information.

318 > 276 even when you factor in the ball. I found this article from Andrew Rice that compared different era golf balls. The tester there hit new Pro V1 about 14% longer than Tour Balata, so a rough estimate would put Jack's 276 at a modern equivalent of 314.

But it's also important to remember that the Tour Balata balls were over 20 years old at the time the article was written. The balls have likely degraded in some form over time so it's possible brand new balatas would be longer than 20 year old ones, meaning the distance factor could be less than 14%.

Jack was a long hitter in his prime. DJ is probably longer, but not by a ridiculous amount or anything. More like the difference between DJ and Rory or JT, all top tier players in terms of distance.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, billchao said:

318 > 276 even when you factor in the ball. I found this article from Andrew Rice that compared different era golf balls. The tester there hit new Pro V1 about 14% longer than Tour Balata, so a rough estimate would put Jack's 276 at a modern equivalent of 314.

And I saw Rick Shiels did a test and found it went about 5-10 yards farther only.

6 minutes ago, billchao said:

But it's also important to remember that the Tour Balata balls were over 20 years old at the time the article was written. The balls have likely degraded in some form over time so it's possible brand new balatas would be longer than 20 year old ones, meaning the distance factor could be less than 14%.

Yes, also that.

[billchao]

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

And I saw Rick Shiels did a test and found it went about 5-10 yards farther only.

Right, there are all sorts of different test results out there. The only thing anybody knows for certain is today's balls go farther but nobody knows by exactly how much.