What would you do? Player signs for correct total, but one hole is incorrect

[bkuehn1952]

The tournament is a 3 day handicapped stroke play club event.  No serious money involved, although there are prizes for those who do well.  Because it is a club event, everyone knows everyone else.

One of our players turns in his card.  The total listed on the card is 83.  He was not careful to make sure the hole by hole was correct.  Later, while inputting the data, it turns out his hole by hole scores add up to 82.  Turns out, his scorer putt down a "4" in lieu of his actual score of "5" on the 14th hole.  When presented with the problem, the player recognized that there was an incorrect hole score.  His total was in fact 83.

I believe that many tournaments only require the player to confirm the hole by hole is correct.  Failure to add up the scores correctly is not a breach of the Rules.  Many low level amateur events prefer people to total their score, too, which is what our club prefers.

Our player signed his card with a "4" instead of the correct "5".  Despite the total being correct, he signed an incorrect score card with a lower score than he actually made, which should result in a DQ.

I am afraid our Tournament Committee, of which I was a part, decided to look the other way.  We do not have a scorer's table where we can remind everyone to make sure the hole by hole is correct.  Clearly there was no intent to deceive anyone or get a competitive advantage because the total was correct.  Finally, this is supposed to be a fun 3-day event in Northern Michigan; laying a DQ on someone after day 1 would not have been fun.  Personally, I would like to think I would have DQ'd myself and removed the Committee from having to be the bad guys.

[iacas]

DQ. Sorry. The total is irrelevant.

This isn’t a nuanced issue or anything. The Rules, as I think you know, are pretty clear here.

[iacas]

So this got less interest than I thought.

What ended up happening overall @bkuehn1952?

Did the Committee ever look at the rule? Realize it goofed?

[colin007]

This is a case where I feel that the rules don't accurately reward a player for how he actually played. Things like this make people roll their eyes about golf. Oh well, nobody cares what I think so.....😘

[billchao]

35 minutes ago, colin007 said:

This is a case where I feel that the rules don't accurately reward a player for how he actually played. Things like this make people roll their eyes about golf. Oh well, nobody cares what I think so.....😘

I kind of feel the same way. I know what the rules say, but given the circumstances I think it's reasonable to let it go.

[criley4way]

Let him play. Inform him of the infraction. Offer to let him play but forgo any place he finishes. 

[iacas]

52 minutes ago, billchao said:

I kind of feel the same way. I know what the rules say, but given the circumstances I think it's reasonable to let it go.

Huh? No.

The Rules on this are really, really, really clear and simple.

But hey, everyone gets a f***ing trophy, and why follow even the simplest, most basic rules of the game…

[billchao]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

The Rules on this are really, really, really clear and simple.

I mentioned that.

But it's not like rules never change. A whole bunch of them are changing soon, a number of which are changing because the old rules are too Draconian, which is kind of how I feel about this particular situation.

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

But hey, everyone gets a f***ing trophy, and why follow even the simplest, most basic rules of the game…

This really has nothing to do with anything. It's not like the guy was cheating. Someone wrote down the wrong hole score and the player overlooked it probably because the total score was correct. It's a mistake that has no effect on the leaderboard. To err is human.

Like I said, I know what the rule is. That's not what I think @bkuehn1952 is asking. He knows what the rule is. There's no discussion to be had if it was simply a question about the rule.

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, colin007 said:

This is a case where I feel that the rules don't accurately reward a player for how he actually played. Things like this make people roll their eyes about golf. Oh well, nobody cares what I think so.....😘

 

1 hour ago, billchao said:

I kind of feel the same way. I know what the rules say, but given the circumstances I think it's reasonable to let it go.

Me three. :)

[onthehunt526]

On 9/4/2018 at 2:44 PM, iacas said:

DQ. Sorry. The total is irrelevant.

This isn’t a nuanced issue or anything. The Rules, as I think you know, are pretty clear here.

Isn't the hole-by-hole the player's responsibility and the arithmetic the committee's responsibility?

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Isn't the hole-by-hole the player's responsibility and the arithmetic the committee's responsibility?

Yep.

37 minutes ago, billchao said:

I mentioned that.

But it's not like rules never change. A whole bunch of them are changing soon, a number of which are changing because the old rules are too Draconian, which is kind of how I feel about this particular situation.

And yet this one didn't change.

Hmmmm. Gee.

37 minutes ago, billchao said:

This really has nothing to do with anything. It's not like the guy was cheating.

Didn't say he did. He did breach a rule, though, and the penalty for breaching that rule is a DQ. The Committee has no authority to rescind a DQ in this case.

You're playing golf and you think you hit your ball, but you get to the green and find that though it is the same name and number as your ball, it isn't your ball, and you go back and find your ball five feet away in a better lie. No harm, no foul? No, a breach of the rules.

37 minutes ago, billchao said:

Someone wrote down the wrong hole score and the player overlooked it probably because the total score was correct. It's a mistake that has no effect on the leaderboard. To err is human.

The total is irrelevant.

To err is human, sure, but it's also against the rules of the game.

37 minutes ago, billchao said:

Like I said, I know what the rule is. That's not what I think @bkuehn1952 is asking. He knows what the rule is. There's no discussion to be had if it was simply a question about the rule.

And again, the Committee has no authority to not DQ the player in this case.

---

Were I the competitor, I'd DQ myself if the Committee failed in its responsibility to do so.

[onthehunt526]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Were I the competitor, I'd DQ myself if the Committee failed in its responsibility to do so.

Same here. We had a goof up in the City Championship last weekend in the qualifying round. Someone put a 6 down on a hole for me when I made a 7. I'm on the committee, so I caught it before I signed my card, so I didn't have to Dairy Queen myself. (Good thing I caught that, I ended up finishing second in my flight)

[DaveP043]

46 minutes ago, billchao said:

Like I said, I know what the rule is. That's not what I think @bkuehn1952 is asking. He knows what the rule is. There's no discussion to be had if it was simply a question about the rule.

What @bkuehn1952 asked is "what would you do?"  If I was on the committee, I'd reluctantly enforce the rule as written, I'd DQ the guy.   I'd feel bad about it, but the only way to be fair to every player in the field is to enforce the rules on every player in the field.  If I won something because of this guy's mistake, I'd feel bad too, probably do something on my own to share the prize.  And if I was the guy who made the mistake, I hope I'd DQ myself.  I can't say for sure, I've never been put to that kind of test, but I hope i would.

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

What @bkuehn1952 asked is "what would you do?"  If I was on the committee, I'd reluctantly enforce the rule as written, I'd DQ the guy.   I'd feel bad about it, but the only way to be fair to every player in the field is to enforce the rules on every player in the field.  If I won something because of this guy's mistake, I'd feel bad too, probably do something on my own to share the prize.  And if I was the guy who made the mistake, I hope I'd DQ myself.  I can't say for sure, I've never been put to that kind of test, but I hope i would.

Right.

When people just begin deciding for themselves which rules to apply and which do not, how is that fair to anyone? If the guy's an ass, and you DQ him, do you not DQ the nice guy who is friends with the committee members for the same infraction?

What if a guy purposefully wrote down the wrong score for a hole but wrote down the right total, knowing perfectly well that the hole scores are what count, not the total, and if he was DQ'ed he could just say "but you let Bob off with the same thing last week"? And he'd have a point.

The best rules are the clear-cut ones, but you kick that idea in the teeth when you just decide on a whim "because it's not fair" or whatever to change the rules, completely on your own.

And again, this isn't even one of the rules they "softened" for 2019. So you don't even have that leg on which to stand.

---

BTW:

New Rules of Golf for 2019

Spoiler

b. Scoring in Stroke Play

The player’s score is kept on his or her scorecard by the marker, who is either identified by the Committee or chosen by the player in a way approved by the Committee.

The player must use the same marker for the entire round, unless the Committee approves a change either before or after it happens.

(1) Marker’s Responsibility: Entering and Certifying Hole Scores on Scorecard. After each hole during the round, the marker should confirm with the player the number of strokes on that hole (including strokes made and penalty strokes) and enter that gross score on thescorecard.

When the round has ended:

• The marker must certify the hole scores on the scorecard.
• f the player had more than one marker, each marker must certify the scores for those holes where he or she was the marker.

(2) Player’s Responsibility: Certifying Hole Scores and Returning Scorecard. During the round, the player should keep track of his or her scores for each hole.

When the round has ended, the player:

• Must not change a hole score entered by the marker except with the marker’sagreement or the Committee’s approval, and
• Should carefully check the hole scores entered by the marker and raise any issues with the Committee,
• Must make sure that the marker certifies the hole scores on the scorecard,
• Must certify the hole scores on the scorecard and promptly return it to theCommittee, after which the player must not change the scorecard.

If the player breaches any of these requirements in Rule 3.3b, the player is disqualified.

Exception – No Penalty When Breach Due to Marker Failing to Carry Out Responsibilities: There is no penalty if the Committee finds that the player’s breach of Rule 3.3b(2) was caused by the marker’s failure to carry out his or her responsibilities (such as the marker leaving with the player’s scorecard or without certifying the scorecard), so long as this was beyond the player’s control.

See Committee Procedures, Section __ (recommendations on how to define when ascorecard has been returned); Section __ (what the Committee should do if the marker does not carry out his or her responsibilities).

(3) Wrong Score for a Hole. If the player returns a scorecard with a wrong score for any hole:

• Returned Score Higher Than Actual Score. The higher returned score for the hole stands.
• Returned Score Lower Than Actual Score or No Score Returned. The player is disqualified.

[colin007]

Nobody is saying the rule isn't clear. It is, no argument here.

Some of us are saying that the rule had nothing to do with the a actual physical playing of the sport, as in hitting the ball into the hole in the fewest number of strokes. It's ticky tack, as we would say in other sports.

[Vinsk]

8 minutes ago, colin007 said:

Nobody is saying the rule isn't clear. It is, no argument here.

Some of us are saying that the rule had nothing to do with the a actual physical playing of the sport, as in hitting the ball into the hole in the fewest number of strokes. It's ticky tack, as we would say in other sports.

Neither does pushing a loud mouth safety after the play is dead. But it's a penalty. How the rule affects the competition is irrelevant if it applies to all players. Once you start to make exceptions..it then becomes ticky tack.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, colin007 said:

Nobody is saying the rule isn't clear. It is, no argument here.

Some of us are saying that the rule had nothing to do with the a actual physical playing of the sport, as in hitting the ball into the hole in the fewest number of strokes. It's ticky tack, as we would say in other sports.

I've never argued that it has to do with "the actual physical playing of the sport."

But it's a Rule of Golf all the same, and it's NOT within The Committee's purview to change it.

There are lots of these procedural types of rules in every sport. Guess what? They're the rules of the game, and they must be followed the same as the rest of the Rules. Not doing so can lead to massive problems when the committee or whomever tries to modify things based on what they think is fair, and then encounters a similar situation the next week with a guy they don't like as much, or a guy they think tried to cheat and hoped that it wouldn't be caught, or whatever.

DQ him. This is the kind of lesson you tend to only need to learn once.

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

Neither does pushing a loud mouth safety after the play is dead. But it's a penalty. How the rule affects the competition is irrelevant if it applies to all players. Once you start to make exceptions..it then becomes ticky tack.

This.

[Hardspoon]

If it were me on the Committee, since it was a "fun tournament", I would have DQ'd him but then offered to let him play as a non-competing marker.  At least that way he still gets to enjoy the rounds, but is not part of the competition.

(I'm the "Something else" vote right now, even though technically it falls in the first category)

I can at least see an argument for changing this rule...but that's not the topic of this thread.  Given the circumstances, I think there was absolutely no choice but to DQ the player...I think mostly because of this:

37 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not doing so can lead to massive problems when the committee or whomever tries to modify things based on what they think is fair, and then encounters a similar situation the next week with a guy they don't like as much, or a guy they think tried to cheat and hoped that it wouldn't be caught, or whatever.

It's just too much leeway and gray area.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Hardspoon