On Modern Instruction, "Feels" vs. Mechanics, and a Grab Bag of Related Topics

[boogielicious]

3 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You made the inference to car salesman....not me.  Do you read what you write?  It's like dealing with someone with acute ADD.  I don't even know where to begin.  If you allow students with lousy swings to build upon a false premise, then that's your deal, and why folks dislike instructors.  It's by far the worst way to teach anything.  Good gawd, you ran another thread about "non conning yourself" but then apparently you con your students.  I can't keep up with your lack of logic.

You have a handful of sycophants who agree with anything you write...but you are one guy in Erie PA who has never played on tour, your team members can barely win a city championship, but you want everyone to believe you're the guru of golf.  It's just utterly ridiculous.

Seriously??

Wow. You completely miss the point dude. 

[GolfLug]

@Puttin4Dough, that is a really unfortunate take on OP.

Lot of us are @iacas' students with in person and online lessons for years and he has helped transformed not only many of our golf swings in the most effective way but how we approach golf as a whole.

You don't have to agree but it seems you are taking it a bit too far. Please stop doubling down on misguided drivel.

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by GolfLug

[saevel25]

10 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

.now that I think folks might agree with, but it's not because they're bad instructors in many cases because golf is a focused, individual, personal achievement game. 

No, it's about bad instruction. There are a ton of instructors who throw out the same generic phrases over and over again and charge exorbitant amount of money for it. It's a racket. 

Also, it's part of good instruction to teach how to properly practice. I've had about 4-5 instructors in my lifetime. Only 1 taught me how to practice. That may have been the best instruction I ever got.  

10 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

I tell the person they need to forget everything and start over....

That is an impossibility. You can't force yourself to forget. The mind does not work that way. There is no on or off switch. 

You have to work around the bad things they have ingrained overtime. I will forever have an over swinging issue. I understand this. I accept this. It will be something I need to work on for the rest of the time I play golf. It's because I played 15+ years of golf, countless shots over swinging. You as an instructor will never get me to forget this. It is something I need to be aware of, because If I am not then it will return. Every year, I spend hours working on fixing my backswing length. In the end, if I think I have it fixed, it will be back by mid-season. 

4 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You have a handful of sycophants who agree with anything you write...but you are one guy in Erie PA who has never played on tour, your team members can barely win a city championship, but you want everyone to believe you're the guru of golf.  It's just utterly ridiculous.

Wow, you went off the rails there, and for no good reason at all. 

[mvmac]

10 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

I tell the person they need to forget everything and start over....much like learning the scales in piano using proper technique. 

This is a big reason why most golfers avoid getting lessons. They are afraid the instructor will "start them from scratch" and have to do a swing rebuild.

No golfer in the world has a perfect swing, everyone has issues they have to work around.

And the idea that you can just "forget everything" is false. You can't just factory reset your swing, it's a motor pattern.

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

If you allow students with lousy swings to build upon a false premise, then that's your deal, and why folks dislike instructors.  It's by far the worst way to teach anything. 

lol @iacas actually does the opposite, hence 5 Simple Keys and Lowest Score Wins so golfers don't have to operate under false premises.  

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You have a handful of sycophants who agree with anything you write...but you are one guy in Erie PA who has never played on tour, your team members can barely win a city championship, but you want everyone to believe you're the guru of golf.  It's just utterly ridiculous.

Seriously? 🙄

[Lihu]

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You made the inference to car salesman....not me.  Do you read what you write?  It's like dealing with someone with acute ADD.  I don't even know where to begin.  If you allow students with lousy swings to build upon a false premise, then that's your deal, and why folks dislike instructors.  It's by far the worst way to teach anything.  Good gawd, you ran another thread about "non conning yourself" but then apparently you con your students.  I can't keep up with your lack of logic.

I think the idea is to approach golf improvement as scientifically and technically as possible. Throw away all the bad information and keep only the good. If a theory was wrong, then cast it away. That’s the science.

Luckily, for me that I hadn’t been playing golf long enough to have to unlearn a lot of things before finding this site, and I was still in the process of learning things the first time.

I really love the technical aspects of this site and the way they approach things here. I’m an engineer and love engineering my swing and building training aides.

 

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You have a handful of sycophants who agree with anything you write...but you are one guy in Erie PA who has never played on tour, your team members can barely win a city championship, but you want everyone to believe you're the guru of golf.  It's just utterly ridiculous.

Yeah, I’m definitely not that 😂

Erik’s the first instructor to use this method and it seems to work pretty well for me. So, I stick around...

BTW, had to look up “sycophants”, you’re better educated than most people, so I’d ask that you look more at other topics in this site to understand the people who run this site a bit better.

[iacas]

So, @Puttin4Dough, I'm going to give you about ten times the respect you've shown me here by treating your post as a serious one, though every indication is that this will be a complete waste of time.

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You made the inference to car salesman....not me.

First, I now believe that you're referring to this part of my opening post:

On 12/18/2018 at 10:30 PM, iacas said:

Note: I'm one of the first guys to tell you that I think most instructors aren't very good. And I have reason to dislike those guys more than most, because they actually make it more difficult for me to do well in my instruction business. If the perception is that instruction is bad (because it is), then that de-motivates people to seek out good instruction. It's a bit of a sinking tide lowers all ships sort of deal. What's the reputation of used car salesmen? Poor, right? I imagine nobody hates that reputation more than the good used car salesmen out there, as they have to work harder to overcome their perception of their peers as well as the normal things that come up in selling a car.

The point there, IMO, is pretty clear: the good used car salesmen have to work to overcome the reputations of their peers. I could have used other fields. For example, a lot of people are skeptical of chiropractors, and I imagine the good chiropractors hate that the bad chiropractors taint the reputation of their field as a whole.

The post I made is several weeks old, and is over 3300 words long. So when you said this:

11 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

Golf instructors are like car salesman....

I didn't connect that to a sentence or two I'd written weeks ago in a 3350+-word post, particularly since you didn't quote it or refer to it specifically.

Also, I didn't say golf instructors were like used car salesmen. You did. I was drawing a parallel about how "good" professionals in one field would feel about the "bad" professionals in their same field. I was not saying that one is like the other.

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

Do you read what you write? It's like dealing with someone with acute ADD.

ADD? Again, man, the post is several weeks old, and you didn't even quote it. And you misunderstood it.

@saevel25 got it. I think almost everyone else got it. Why, when so many others "get it," do you so often seem to need things explained to you? You didn't understand what the "conning yourself" topic was about, even though something like the phrase "this thread is about…" was used. Now this.

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

If you allow students with lousy swings to build upon a false premise, then that's your deal, and why folks dislike instructors.

Nah. Not only does your logic fail there ("folks dislike instructors" because "I allow students with lousy swings to build upon a false premise"?), but you've likely got no real idea whether instructors are liked or disliked, nor does what I do (even if you were correct about your assumption, which you're not) influence whether "folks dislike instructors."

And what's a "false premise"? You talked about fundamentals, and how you wouldn't let someone with "bad fundamentals" continue forward.

11 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

So IMO I don't bother teaching around bad fundamentals. I tell the person they need to forget everything and start over.

There are a couple of problems with your post:

• You assumed that I let someone move forward with "bad fundamentals." I've only ever said I don't tell them to "forget everything and start over" or "rebuild from the ground up" (or other variations of that idea).
• What are "bad fundamentals"? You've never defined them.

The first point is simply a bad assumption on your part, and an incorrect one. If I see someone with a poor grip or setup, I often fix that, then get down to the priority piece. A little time spent perusing even Member Swing topics would show you this. Hell, the first thing I had @DaveP043 do was to change his setup - he was about a 3.4 index or something at the time and telling him to "forget everything and start over" would have been absolutely bonkers. I'm only mentioning him (Dave) because he's anything but a sycophant, and he'll tell it like it is. Oh, and he got down to his lowest handicap ever with two pretty basic lessons (and good work on his part).

To the second and more interesting point… what are "bad fundamentals"? I fix a lot of grips, a lot of setups, and so on, but as I see things, there are only five commonalities of the game's best players, and every lesson I give works at improving one (or more) of those things. Often the grip or setup affects that, and so they're worked on. But I don't make people "start over."

And what's a good "fundamental"? Tommy Gainey's swing doesn't look like Jim Furyk's, or Tiger Woods, or Jack's or Arnie's or Vijay Singh's. Phil Mickelson has won over 40 PGA Tour events and five majors with a swing that many wouldn't really say they love. Those guys all had different grips. Zach Johnson and Paul Azinger both have really, really strong grips: one hit a fade, the other plays a draw.

But all of those guys do five things really well.

@GolfLug had an injury, and thus, felt comfortable gripping the club somewhere between 45-60° strong. I couldn't "start over" with him because he had "bad fundamentals" or he'd simply not be playing golf anymore. I worked with what he could do, and he's done well with that, "bad fundamentals" included.

So, no, I think you erred in two ways here:

• You assumed I just let people have bad "fundamentals."
• You've not defined what "fundamentals" are.

I wrote more here:

That post is from 2011, and I've not read it in awhile, but I imagine it says:

• Fundamentals are not the same as commonalities.
• Everyone has to hold onto the club, and stand at the ball, and align somewhere, but great players have done those things differently, so those things aren't commonalities.
• "Fundamentals" (GAPS) are still important, and I adjust them in a lot of lessons.

What i don't feel the need to do, however, is "forget everything and start over." That's, as I said before, utterly ridiculous. The golfer in front of you already knows how to break 80, or whatever… They don't need to "forget everything!"

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

It's by far the worst way to teach anything.

Beg to differ.

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

Good gawd, you ran another thread about "non conning yourself" but then apparently you con your students.

Huh? I'd respond more here, but… I legitimately don't even know what you're saying with this. I don't "con" my students. I don't lie to them. I don't tell them they're better than they are. I'm honest and direct with them. I work with them to achieve their goals. I talk with them about how to practice after the lesson. I create notes and images and will send them home with those, or videos, so that they can continue to understand their own swing. I have repeat students because they get "hooked" on improvement, not so I can keep giving them the same lessons over and over again, and not because I've sold them on a 15-lesson package because we've had to "forget everything and start over."

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You have a handful of sycophants who agree with anything you write

So now you're gonna insult the guys who I've helped here on the forum, with thousands and thousands of posts containing a TON of free information, all backed by the science and experience I've got at my disposal?

There are people on this site whom I've never met who attribute this site to having a huge impact on their game.

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

but you are one guy in Erie PA who has never played on tour,

Well, you're finally right about something, because I'm not two guys. Or even one girl, or π people. I'm also not a cat, or a ladybug. And, I live in Erie, PA. I live here primarily because my stepdaughter, a pretty damn good golfer in her own right (and a smart kid), whom I've known since she was 1 year old, has a biological father who wouldn't let us move anywhere else.

Not that I mind living in Erie too much. I'm in the top six Best in State for PA. I was on the Best Young Teachers list. I wrote a book that's sold incredibly well, to Tour instructors, Tour players, and 30-handicappers alike. The guy I work with has been on Tour, and he'll tell you plenty of great things about me. I've got a bunch of other smart friends in the industry, I've been out on Tour and inside the ropes as an instructor, and I'm proud of the work I've done.

Dave Wedzik, by the way, would also tell you that when he was out on Tour he gave lessons. He'd tell you that if he could, he'd refund every last one of those lessons now because they were garbage compared to what he does now. In other words, "never played on Tour" has virtually nothing to do with being a good instructor. Did David Leadbetter play the Tour? Chris Como never did. Sean Foley never did. Dana Dahlquist never did. Hank Haney never did.

A ton of great instructors never played the Tour, and there are a bunch of guys who did play the Tour who give terrible lessons. Tour players are great at hitting a ball, great at playing golf. They're often "stupid monkeys" (that's a compliment), but playing golf at a high level is a completely different skill set than being able to coach or instruct.

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

your team members can barely win a city championship

Huh?

We're a Division III school (i.e. no athletic scholarships), and I only ever have two or three players who live in Erie, and are thus even eligible to play.

I've had students win professional events, national collegiate tournaments, college conference championships, city championships at both the adult and U18 level (the last three years, Golf Evolution students have won nine of the last 12 "majors" in junior golf in Erie). We've had national Drive, Chip, and Putt winners. We've coached guys who have won club championships, state-wide senior amateur titles, AJGA events, HJGT events, and so much more. We've coached top women and men D1 college players, All Americans… European and PGA Tour players, LPGA Tour players…

And I've coached guys who never broke 100 in their lives and then who, after working with me, are now working on breaking 80. I've taught women who only took up the game at retirement to play with her husband… and then taught her husband after his wife started beating him regularly!

And I'm not saying that to "take credit." I'm just a guide. They put in the work, the effort, the time, the balls. They go out there and achieve. I've been grateful to help them to those things.

But don't come at me with crap like "your team members can barely win a city championship." It's ignorant at best, and at its worst, well…

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

but you want everyone to believe you're the guru of golf.  It's just utterly ridiculous.

Nope, that's not what I want.

What I want? To help people play better golf.

That's all.

[DaveP043]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

The first point is simply a bad assumption on your part, and an incorrect one. If I see someone with a poor grip or setup, I often fix that, then get down to the priority piece. A little time spent perusing even Member Swing topics would show you this. Hell, the first thing I had @DaveP043 do was to change his setup - he was about a 3.4 index or something at the time and telling him to "forget everything and start over" would have been absolutely bonkers. I'm only mentioning him (Dave) because he's anything but a sycophant, and he'll tell it like it is. Oh, and he got down to his lowest handicap ever with two pretty basic lessons (and good work on his part).

When I saw the posts by @Puttin4Dough, especially the talk about sycophants, I was tempted to chime in immediately, but I'm glad I waited.  Feel free to research my posts, you'll find lots of times I've disagreed with Erik on matters of opinion.  But after being involved with TheSandTrap for about 2 years, I posted videos of my swings, and @iacas did indeed recommend a significant change to my set-up.  At least it felt significant to me at the time.  We followed on with a few more changes, and I'm still working (not as diligently as I should) to improve my swing.  In short, he gave me one thing at a time to work on, with a clear explanation of WHAT to change, WHY to change it, and HOW to go about that change.  To me, that seems like a pretty good method of teaching.

Seeing as how you ( @Puttin4Dough) have chosen to belittle someone else's resume, perhaps you can provide some of your own qualifications. Do you currently teach?  What have your students accomplished?  Do your students return after you start them on a "complete rebuild" program?  Have you played at a high level yourself?  At a 3.8 index, you're not a lot better than I am.  

I enjoy discussion, even arguments at times, as long as we all respect each other.  

[Patch]

Just an observation on my part based on "what I think" (?) this thread was originally intended for. 

Instruction of any kind should be an on going scenario. On going to a point where it is no longer wanted, even though it may still be needed. . 

We all started out as youngsters getting "free" instruction, or at least instruction paid for by someone else. 

As we all progressed through our first 17 years of instruction, it was still basically free to us. Yes, maybe there were supplies/equipment that needed to be purchased, but the actual in struction we recieved in life, and schooling was still free. 

Next, some of us were lucky enough to earn our college degrees free, or at least relatively cheap. 

All this free/cheap instruction also included how to play the different sports we were interested in. 

Now here we are as adults watching MLB, NBA, NFL and sports players getting paid to recieve instruction. 

It's different with golf. Professional, and amateur players both need to pay for instruction. Golf is also a game that requires continued, on going instruction for the player trying to excell at this game. 

PGA/LPGA  players continually recieve, and pay for instruction. Without on going instruction, they would probably just fade away into some other job..  Most of the professionals even have to pay to play in their tournamets. Can you imagine LeBron James having pay to play in the NBA? Brady in the NFL? 

The amateur golfer is in the same boat, but for the most part with considerably less money to pay for instruction. Most, at some point can afford two, or three lessons. The problem is, after those two,  or three lessons, they don't see the value in their investment, and certainly are not going to keep paying for on going lessons, which again, in golf, is required to excell at it. The amateur golfer comes up with various excuses to not "need" anymore lessons. The biggest excuse being the instructor who took their money, did not lower their score after two or three lessons. 

Golf is such a tough game to learn, and for 99% (?) of those taking up the game can't be self taught if the golfer wants to excell at it. 

 

[colin007]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

There are people on this site whom I've never met who attribute this site to having a huge impact on their game.

I'm one of those people. Never met @iacas in person, but I think the world of him, his instruction, and his website. I haven't found a better source for scientific, research based, accurate golf instruction ANYWHERE.  He aggressively seeks truth. There is no aspect of the game or swing that he hasn't taken apart and asked if it could be done better.

Thank you Erik. 👍

[Puttin4Dough]

I post swing thoughts and techniques that are straight from top golf instructors I've worked with, and/or tour pro's, .  But the problem is even top instructors disagree with each other.  Why?  Because the person receiving the information doesn't think the same way.  Therefore, golf swing instruction will never be universal.  Even tour pro's have a difficult time finding the right instructor because nobody has invented anything new about the golf swing despite claims made otherwise, but each swing is highly individual and unique. 

Everyone teaches differently and students react to instruction differently.  Give a student something more difficult to work on and they'll say "it ruined my swing" and continue shooting 102.  The incalculable number of videos and books about golf reveals the fact that everyone perceives swing movement and feel differently.  Some don't want to put in the time but expect results.  Others practice inefficient moves for decades.  Some are naturally talented like 2 year old Tiger hitting balls on the Merv Griffin Show.  People say golf takes decades to learn, but explain why a 10 year old kid can drive the ball 220 who started golf at 8 years old.  That's my neighbor's kid, and in his case we shy away from explaining anything "mechanical"...we let him play.

Some folks might post what sounds like a pro giving them "bad" instruction, but it's likely because that instructor is working on a specific issue to undo a bad habit, therefore the initial post and subsequent comments are meaningless..

I don't disagree with instruction on TSP, i point out different thoughts, but 99% of the time i receive sarcastic "you're wrong" responses. Disagreeing with a person's individual swing thoughts or how they learn is like disagreeing with how someone talks, what colors they like, pace of walking, or the car they drive..  

[iacas]

On 1/6/2019 at 2:37 PM, Puttin4Dough said:

I post swing thoughts and techniques that are straight from top golf instructors I've worked with, and/or tour pro's.

If they're just stuff from other people, why get so personally offended? It's just a bit of information. And to be honest, maybe you're calm, but you didn't seem that way. I've never gotten riled up by other people's disagreement. If I feel strongly about my position, I'll state it and argue it. At the end of the day, though, it's just golf. It's a freaking game. Some times it amazes me that people pay for instruction at all.

And… plenty of tour pros and instructors give out crappy, terrible advice. Tips that make no sense. Players aren't instructors; it's a completely different skill set. Lots of instructors didn't (and many still don't) even know the correct ball flight laws. "Hitting a slice? Oh, roll your wrists over and close the clubface." 🤦‍♂️ "Top instructors" have given that advice… and it's bad, terrible advice (IMO).

Finally, sorry to say, but I'm a "top golf instructor." Not that I care about the titles - I know plenty of crappy instructors with titles and plenty of great instructors who haven't won awards or titles at all (or yet).

If you think something, say it. And then stand by it. Grow a thick enough skin.

On 1/6/2019 at 2:37 PM, Puttin4Dough said:

Even tour pro's have a difficult time finding the right instructor because nobody has invented anything new about the golf swing despite claims made otherwise, but each swing is highly individual and unique.

Depending on your definition of "invented," I disagree. I think it's undeniable that our understanding has grown tremendously, and we have insights into areas that were previously black boxes. We have better tools capable of measuring far more than ever.

On 1/6/2019 at 2:37 PM, Puttin4Dough said:

I don't disagree with instruction on TST, i point out different thoughts, but 99% of the time i receive sarcastic "you're wrong" responses. Disagreeing with a person's individual swing thoughts or how they learn is like disagreeing with how someone talks, what colors they like, pace of walking, or the car they drive..

I realize the irony here, but you have 78 posts. For 99% of them to be "wrong," you'd have had to post 77 posts that got a "you're wrong" response. That's not even close to accurate.

The irony is that I'm basically saying "you're wrong" to this post… because you are.

Facts can be wrong. Opinions cannot be, and I'm well aware of this, so I think your perception of getting a 99% response rate of "you're wrong" is wildly off base.

• In the "Conning Yourself" topic, you were wrong, and you did get a few "you're wrong" responses… because you were wrong. The topic was clearly defined in the first post, with words like "this thread is about discussing this…" and you continually posted about it being something else. That was not a difference of opinion, and it had nothing to do with actual instruction. The topic wasn't even really instructionally based. (People can con themselves into thinking they're a great father, or a good employee, or that they're doing what they can to volunteer in their communities, etc.).
• In this topic, you've made a few posts and not gotten a single "you're wrong" post.
• In the "Speed from the Arms" topic, you got one "you're wrong" post (not from me) despite about six or seven posts of your own.
• Proper grip pressure, last post in the topic, no "you're wrong" response.
• Nobody really replied to you in the Ballard topic, where you made two or three posts.
• You were wildly off topic in the "Failure to Include" topic, but nobody said "you're wrong" there.
• That was your last 40 posts or so, so I looked at your first few… also no "you're wrong" type posts, like in the "do not accelerate" topic where you started asking about whether you should straighten your right leg during the golf swing (not on topic).

So no, I think if you look back at your posts, you'll find that your 99% assessment is not just invalid, it's wildly so.

I think that, for whatever reason, you've got some sort of chip on your shoulder, or something.

I took the time to respond to your really poor post here in this topic, and I get this back. You didn't address a single thing in the topic about how you'd advise someone to "forget everything and start over." You didn't address the question about what you call "fundamentals." You didn't address any of the mud you slung, without provocation, and instead just continued to make up shit about how 99% of your posts are met with "you're wrong."

As predicted, it was a waste of time as far as you're concerned. I ended up writing it because it lets me clarify my thoughts for others. Others who are worth the time, because they haven't come on here just to behave as poorly as you have.

This topic, like every topic here, will be kept on topic. Please respond to the topic at hand - anything stated in the OP, and those in subsequent posts closely related to the OP - and not go off on some tangent, particularly if that involves slinging mud and just generally behaving poorly.

---

And seriously, I encourage debate. I encourage discussion. I like it when people have a different perspective, because it presents to me an opportunity to grow my own knowledge base. Dave and I work very hard at "not conning ourselves" (not lying to ourselves) by thinking we can't get any better than we are now, and listening to interesting people is part of how we stay on top of things and continue to improve.

But…

• If you're going to be personally offended by a disagreement, don't bother. It's just information, and opinions.
• If it's not even your own information or opinion, then really don't be personally offended.
• Don't make blanket statements like "anyone" or "automatic" or whatever. They're easily shown to be false, and make for a bad argument.
• Don't insult what I do as a whole, or those who often (but not always) agree with me, not just because it just makes you look like an ass, but also because really you've got no real idea how I teach.
• Understand the differences between facts and opinions and apply that understanding in how you react. Facts can be right and wrong, opinions can be agreed with or disagreed with.
• Don't give too much weight to PGA Tour players. They're very good at what they do, but "give great instruction" is not "what they do."
• Feel ain't real. On a forum, when speaking generally (i.e. not to one person about his or her specific swing), I don't really care about "feels." I can only really talk about what's "real" in that case. Does the player do move "X" or "Y"? I don't care what it feels like, only that they do or don't do this or that.

[Big Lex]

On 1/5/2019 at 11:55 PM, iacas said:

So, @Puttin4Dough, I'm going to give you about ten times the respect you've shown me here by treating your post as a serious one, though every indication is that this will be a complete waste of time.

First, I now believe that you're referring to this part of my opening post:

The point there, IMO, is pretty clear: the good used car salesmen have to work to overcome the reputations of their peers. I could have used other fields. For example, a lot of people are skeptical of chiropractors, and I imagine the good chiropractors hate that the bad chiropractors taint the reputation of their field as a whole.

The post I made is several weeks old, and is over 3300 words long. So when you said this:

I didn't connect that to a sentence or two I'd written weeks ago in a 3350+-word post, particularly since you didn't quote it or refer to it specifically.

ADD? Again, man, the post is several weeks old, and you didn't even quote it.

@saevel25 got it. I think almost everyone else got it. Why, when so many others "get it," do you so often seem to need things explained to you? You didn't understand what the "conning yourself" topic was about, even though something like the phrase "this thread is about…" was used. Now this.

Nah. Not only does your logic fail there ("folks dislike instructors" because "I allow students with lousy swings to build upon a false premise"?), but you've likely got no real idea whether instructors are liked or disliked, nor does what I do (even if you were correct about your assumption, which you're not) influence whether "folks dislike instructors."

And what's a "false premise"? You talked about fundamentals, and how you wouldn't let someone with "bad fundamentals" continue forward.

There are a couple of problems with your post:

• You assumed that I let someone move forward with "bad fundamentals." I've only ever said I don't tell them to "forget everything and start over" or "rebuild from the ground up" (or other variations of that idea).
• What are "bad fundamentals"? You've never defined them.

The first point is simply a bad assumption on your part, and an incorrect one. If I see someone with a poor grip or setup, I often fix that, then get down to the priority piece. A little time spent perusing even Member Swing topics would show you this. Hell, the first thing I had @DaveP043 do was to change his setup - he was about a 3.4 index or something at the time and telling him to "forget everything and start over" would have been absolutely bonkers. I'm only mentioning him (Dave) because he's anything but a sycophant, and he'll tell it like it is. Oh, and he got down to his lowest handicap ever with two pretty basic lessons (and good work on his part).

To the second and more interesting point… what are "bad fundamentals"? I fix a lot of grips, a lot of setups, and so on, but as I see things, there are only five commonalities of the game's best players, and every lesson I give works at improving one (or more) of those things. Often the grip or setup affects that, and so they're worked on. But I don't make people "start over."

And what's a good "fundamental"? Tommy Gainey's swing doesn't look like Jim Furyk's, or Tiger Woods, or Jack's or Arnie's or Vijay Singh's. Phil Mickelson has won over 40 PGA Tour events and five majors with a swing that many wouldn't really say they love. Those guys all had different grips. Zach Johnson and Paul Azinger both have really, really strong grips: one hit a fade, the other plays a draw.

But all of those guys do five things really well.

@GolfLug had an injury, and thus, felt comfortable gripping the club somewhere between 45-60° strong. I couldn't "start over" with him because he had "bad fundamentals" or he'd simply not be playing golf anymore. I worked with what he could do, and he's done well with that, "bad fundamentals" included.

So, no, I think you erred in two ways here:

• You assumed I just let people have bad "fundamentals."
• You've not defined what "fundamentals" are.

I wrote more here:

That post is from 2011, and I've not read it in awhile, but I imagine it says:

• Fundamentals are not the same as commonalities.
• Everyone has to hold onto the club, and stand at the ball, and align somewhere, but great players have done those things differently, so those things aren't commonalities.
• "Fundamentals" (GAPS) are still important, and I adjust them in a lot of lessons.

What i don't feel the need to do, however, is "forget everything and start over." That's, as I said before, utterly ridiculous. The golfer in front of you already knows how to break 80, or whatever… They don't need to "forget everything!"

Beg to differ.

Huh? I'd respond more here, but… I legitimately don't even know what you're saying with this. I don't "con" my students. I don't lie to them. I don't tell them they're better than they are. I'm honest and direct with them. I work with them to achieve their goals. I talk with them about how to practice after the lesson. I create notes and images and will send them home with those, or videos, so that they can continue to understand their own swing. I have repeat students because they get "hooked" on improvement, not so I can keep giving them the same lessons over and over again, and not because I've sold them on a 15-lesson package because we've had to "forget everything and start over."

So now you're gonna insult the guys who I've helped here on the forum, with thousands and thousands of posts containing a TON of free information, all backed by the science and experience I've got at my disposal?

There are people on this site whom I've never met who attribute this site to having a huge impact on their game.

Well, you're finally right about something, because I'm not two guys. Or even one girl, or π people. I'm also not a cat, or a ladybug. And, I live in Erie, PA. I live here primarily because my stepdaughter, a pretty damn good golfer in her own right (and a smart kid), whom I've known since she was 1 year old, has a biological father who wouldn't let us move anywhere else.

Not that I mind living in Erie too much. I'm in the top six Best in State for PA. I was on the Best Young Teachers list. I wrote a book that's sold incredibly well, to Tour instructors, Tour players, and 30-handicappers alike. The guy I work with has been on Tour, and he'll tell you plenty of great things about me. I've got a bunch of other smart friends in the industry, I've been out on Tour and inside the ropes as an instructor, and I'm proud of the work I've done.

Dave Wedzik, by the way, would also tell you that when he was out on Tour he gave lessons. He'd tell you that if he could, he'd refund every last one of those lessons now because they were garbage compared to what he does now. In other words, "never played on Tour" has virtually nothing to do with being a good instructor. Did David Leadbetter play the Tour? Chris Como never did. Sean Foley never did. Dana Dahlquist never did. Hank Haney never did.

A ton of great instructors never played the Tour, and there are a bunch of guys who did play the Tour who give terrible lessons. Tour players are great at hitting a ball, great at playing golf. They're often "stupid monkeys" (that's a compliment), but playing golf at a high level is a completely different skill set than being able to coach or instruct.

Huh?

We're a Division III school (i.e. no athletic scholarships), and I only ever have two or three players who live in Erie, and are thus even eligible to play.

I've had students win professional events, national collegiate tournaments, college conference championships, city championships at both the adult and U18 level (the last three years, Golf Evolution students have won nine of the last 12 "majors" in junior golf in Erie). We've had national Drive, Chip, and Putt winners. We've coached guys who have won club championships, state-wide senior amateur titles, AJGA events, HJGT events, and so much more. We've coached top women and men D1 college players, All Americans… European and PGA Tour players, LPGA Tour players…

And I've coached guys who never broke 100 in their lives and then who, after working with me, are now working on breaking 80. I've taught women who only took up the game at retirement to play with her husband… and then taught her husband after his wife started beating him regularly!

And I'm not saying that to "take credit." I'm just a guide. They put in the work, the effort, the time, the balls. They go out there and achieve. I've been grateful to help them to those things.

But don't come at me with crap like "your team members can barely win a city championship." It's ignorant at best, and at its worst, well…

Nope, that's not what I want.

What I want? To help people play better golf.

That's all.

I wandered onto this old thread following a search of the forum for info on cameras for recording golf swings.....

I know it's a very old thread, but it's astonishing. I read the original post, the very rude criticism by Puttin4Dough, and then @iacas's response. 

It reminded me of something that happened to me about 25 years ago. I was still in my residency training to be a pathologist. My wife and I were staying at her aunt's house. I was ironing a shirt while we were all watching TV. The next morning, the aunt said to my wife "if I ever have to have a breast biopsy, I want JP to read it." My wife asked "why?" The aunt said "because I've seen how he irons a shirt." 

If you read Erik's response, not so much the golf content per se, but specifically the way he went about addressing the criticisms leveled, you reach the same sort of conclusion: This is the exactly sort of person you want teaching you golf.