Kuchar Pays Caddie $5k, Is Shamed, Pays $50k

[ChetlovesMer]

  On 1/17/2019 at 4:54 PM, iacas said:

I have two problems with this tweet:

1. Tom insisted multiple times it was $3k. That he had the number correct. Now he's saying it's $5k.
2. Tom can't do math. Matt won $1,296,000 for his efforts. $5,000 of that is 0.386%. Not 0.0023%. 0.0023% would be $29.81.

Two opinions I still hold:

1. If they negotiated a price and the guy paid it or paid it plus any extra, then so be it.
2. I don't have any reason to believe Tom Gillis any more now than I did before, and maybe even less as he just contradicted himself.

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As the legendary spokeswoman, Teen-Talk Barbie, once said "Math is hard!"

[GolfLug]

  On 1/14/2019 at 3:12 PM, DeadMan said:

It's also not the best idea in Mexico to make a big deal of suddenly having a ton of money.

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^^Yupp.

I believe he got paid more, but it seems best that he (caddy) broadcast that he got 'only' $3K. I bet the cartel fairy is already circling his house for its 'income tax'. 

[turtleback]

In 2016, if Tom Gillis had given 100% of his earnings to his caddie his caddie would have been happier to get 3,000 - Gillis averaged less than 1500 per start..

This is also the same guy who inserted himself into a betting issue between 2 other players about a 6,000 bet and loves to call out players who have been massively successful compared to him.

Hard to tell if his problem is just a massive case of $ envy or a 'look at me, look at me, PLEASE look at me'  attention envy.  In either case, he is the one who comes off looking like a jerk, IMO.  

[Big C]

  On 1/17/2019 at 5:19 PM, rehmwa said:

Gillis is coming across as a dickhead with some kind of personal grudge/ax to grind.

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Agree. Why spend so much time and energy on a private transaction between two parties in which he has no vested interest? Maybe he thinks he is standing up for the "everyman" by making this public. 

To me (and I imagine, many others) he comes across as a complete loser. His obsession with this topic is a sad statement about his life and his priorities.

[Buckeyebowman]

Pay me $3,000 for a weeks work and I'm as happy as a pig in slop!

[Vinsk]

  On 1/30/2019 at 2:58 AM, Buckeyebowman said:

Pay me $3,000 for a weeks work and I'm as happy as a pig in slop!

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Hell no. $3000/week to caddie...I’m in.

[colin007]

Lol it takes me 2 months to net $3,000...

[chspeed]

 

  On 1/17/2019 at 7:07 PM, Big C said:

Agree. Why spend so much time and energy on a private transaction between two parties in which he has no vested interest? Maybe he thinks he is standing up for the "everyman" by making this public. 

To me (and I imagine, many others) he comes across as a complete loser. His obsession with this topic is a sad statement about his life and his priorities. 

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Yes, Gilles may be a loser and can't do math, but that doesn't change what Kuchar did or didn't pay.

  On 1/30/2019 at 3:11 AM, Vinsk said:

Hell no. $3000/week to caddie...I’m in. 

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Sure, but I bet you'd feel differently if your guy won and gave you $3k or $5k (or something in that vicinity), while other guys do the same job and get much, much, more.

  On 1/17/2019 at 5:29 PM, GolfLug said:

 

I believe he got paid more, but it seems best that he (caddy) broadcast that he got 'only' $3K. I bet the cartel fairy is already circling his house for its 'income tax'. 

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Eh. Sure, maybe the caddie got a bit more than he's letting on, but seems doubtful that he got anywhere near the vicinity of what seems equitable. Not saying he should have gotten 10% as a stand-in caddie, but Kuchar made $1.2M. Don't be such a tightwad. Give the guy $20k, $50k, something respectable.

Even if they agreed on a fee beforehand, so what? Kuchar's odds of winning were small, he won, why be so a cheapskate?

[iacas]

  On 1/31/2019 at 5:58 PM, chspeed said:

Sure, but I bet you'd feel differently if your guy won and gave you $3k or $5k (or something in that vicinity), while other guys do the same job and get much, much, more.

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I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit here, and I'm going to stipulate that Kuchar paid ~$5k, which is nowhere near a fact…

The other caddies are NOT doing the "same job." The guy carried the bag. He didn't have to travel to get there. He didn't have to leave his family. He's not familiar with PGA Tour golf like Tour caddies are, and he's certainly not familiar with Kuchar's game. He didn't club Kuchar for the week, didn't talk about how this shot is similar to the one Kuchar hit really well three months ago at such-and-such event on the 62nd hole, doesn't know what types of specialty shots Kuchar hits, doesn't know what shots make Kuchar nervous or excited, doesn't know what to say at the right moment because he's spent years on Kuchar's bag and understands how he thinks, feels, reacts… etc.

People are saying "Kuchar won by one shot so I think the caddie had to have helped him by at least a shot over 72 holes" when it's more likely the caddie COST him a shot or more over those 72 holes as compared to his regular caddie.

  On 1/31/2019 at 5:58 PM, chspeed said:

Give the guy $20k, $50k, something respectable.

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You don't know what he gave him. Maybe he did give him $5k.

  On 1/31/2019 at 5:58 PM, chspeed said:

Even if they agreed on a fee beforehand, so what? Kuchar's odds of winning were small, he won, why be so a cheapskate?

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Devil's advocate again: were he a cheapskate, he could have had his wife or brother or someone carry the bag. And $5k for, what, 40 hours of work is $125/hour. To carry a bag and rake some bunkers.

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I generally tip well, and if he paid only $5k, then that kinda stinks, but:

a) I'm not a big fan of telling others how to spend their money.
b) We don't know at all what he actually paid the guy.

[GolfLug]

  On 1/31/2019 at 5:58 PM, chspeed said:

Eh. Sure, maybe the caddie got a bit more than he's letting on, but seems doubtful that he got anywhere near the vicinity of what seems equitable. Not saying he should have gotten 10% as a stand-in caddie, but Kuchar made $1.2M. Don't be such a tightwad. Give the guy $20k, $50k, something respectable.

Even if they agreed on a fee beforehand, so what? Kuchar's odds of winning were small, he won, why be so a cheapskate?

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Well, my point was he could well have been paid 10 times more like you said, but if I was him (caddie) I would downplay it for my own good. 

Now, if he really got that much ($3K or $5K) then yeah, that's a bit low in my book too. But that's just a passing judgement, since I (or most of us here for that matter..) have no idea want the terms were upfront. May be it's all about 'when in Rome...'  

[Elmer]

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:08 PM, iacas said:

 

You don't know what he gave him. Maybe he did give him $5k.

Devil's advocate again: were he a cheapskate, he could have had his wife or brother or someone carry the bag. And $5k for, what, 40 hours of work is $125/hour. To carry a bag and rake some bunkers.

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I have it on really good authority from Kuchar's brother's Aunt's nephews step-son, that Kuch paid the caddie a beat up quater and a some pocket lint.
But the initial agreement was for far less, so the caddie made out pretty, pretty well!

Bottom line- unless you were part of the initial negotiation, everything else is speculation!

[chspeed]

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:08 PM, iacas said:

$5k, which is nowhere near a fact…

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Agreed. But seems more likely than not that the pay was below what is considered equitable by much of the public, hence the story line. If this is all made up, then of course there's no story (other than a lying caddie and/or sour grapes ex-pro.

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:08 PM, iacas said:

The other caddies are NOT doing the "same job."

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Fair enough - which is why I'm saying it's not expected, at least by me, that he get anywhere near the 10% or so that a full-time caddie gets.

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:08 PM, iacas said:

People are saying "Kuchar won by one shot so I think the caddie had to have helped him by at least a shot over 72 holes"

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I haven't seen that, and agree that it's a weak point.

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:08 PM, iacas said:

And $5k for, what, 40 hours of work is $125/hour. To carry a bag and rake some bunkers.

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$1.2M to hit 320 golf balls makes sense though? 😉 I don't think we're not talking about actual value of work, we're talking about equitable pay.

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:08 PM, iacas said:

I generally tip well, and if he paid only $5k, then that kinda stinks, but: 

a) I'm not a big fan of telling others how to spend their money.
b) We don't know at all what he actually paid the guy. 

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Good for you, I do as well. And yes, that it stinks (if he did pay that) is really all I'm saying.

 

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:17 PM, GolfLug said:

Now, if he really got that much ($3K or $5K) then yeah, that's a bit low in my book too. But that's just a passing judgement, since I (or most of us here for that matter..) have no idea want the terms were upfront. May be it's all about 'when in Rome...'  

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Could be, in which case in my opinion, it's not an equitable calculation. Would he have paid an American stand-in caddie the same? If not, some people might think that's fine. I don't.

[klineka]

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:24 PM, chspeed said:

 I don't think we're not talking about actual value of work, we're talking about equitable pay.

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Why should he get equitable pay when he didnt do equitable work? 

While I've never been a caddie, It doesnt seem like it takes much skill or knowledge to carry the bag, clean the ball and rake a bunker. The value of the caddie comes in the other things @iacas mentioned earlier, knowledge of what club to hit based on past experiences, how to handle the emotions of the player, the trust factor that exists on green reading and club recommendations, etc. IMO that is what makes a PGA Tour caddie valuable.

The temporary caddie likely didn't provide the same value as Kuchar's regular caddie, so IMO it's fair that he likely didn't get paid as much as the regular caddie.

Edited January 31, 2019 by klineka

[chspeed]

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:34 PM, klineka said:

Why should he get equitable pay when he didnt do equitable work?

 

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I agree. As I stated above, I'm not saying he should get anywhere near the 10% full-time caddies get. But the guy is a working caddie, not just some Jose off the street that carried a bag for a few hours. Equitable doesn't mean the same, it means fair.

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:34 PM, klineka said:

The temporary caddie likely didn't provide the same value as Kuchar's regular caddie, so IMO it's fair that he likely didn't get paid as much as the regular caddie.

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I agree. As I stated above, I'm not saying he should get anywhere near the 10% full-time caddies get. But the guy is a working caddie, not just some Jose off the street that carried a bag for a few hours. Equitable doesn't mean the same, it means fair.

[iacas]

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:24 PM, chspeed said:

Agreed. But seems more likely than not that the pay was below what is considered equitable by much of the public, hence the story line. If this is all made up, then of course there's no story (other than a lying caddie and/or sour grapes ex-pro.

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Let me be really, really clear about this: you don't know what "the pay" was. Nor does "the public." So who cares what they think when the key piece of information is literally "unknown."

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:24 PM, chspeed said:

$1.2M to hit 320 golf balls makes sense though? 😉

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Straw man. He didn't train to be a caddie since he was 10, nor does carrying a bag and raking traps take skill.

Kuchar won $1.2M not for hitting 320 golf balls, but for hitting millions of golf balls, and hitting the vast majority of those better than 99% of golfers in the world.

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:24 PM, chspeed said:

I don't think we're not talking about actual value of work, we're talking about equitable pay.

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He didn't do an equitable job.

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:24 PM, chspeed said:

Could be, in which case in my opinion, it's not an equitable calculation. Would he have paid an American stand-in caddie the same? If not, some people might think that's fine. I don't.

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You don't know what he paid the guy.

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:34 PM, klineka said:

Why should he get equitable pay when he didnt do equitable work?

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Right, because he didn't.

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:39 PM, chspeed said:

But the guy is a working caddie

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Who - IF he was paid $5k - was paid 11x his normal rate to… wait for it… carry a bag and rake some bunkers.

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:39 PM, chspeed said:

Equitable doesn't mean the same, it means fair.

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It also means "the same," particularly in golf where "in equity" literally means treating like situations alike - the same.

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If it comes to light that we know for a fact Kuchar paid the guy $5k, then I'll jump right on board and say "man, that's cheap." (Even though from some perspectives, it's a ton of money for the guy to carry a bag.)

But I'm not on any side right now because we don't know the most important bits of information. So I see little point in even discussing it.

[chspeed]

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, iacas said:

Let me be really, really clear about this: you don't know what "the pay" was. Nor does "the public." So who cares what they think when the key piece of information is literally "unknown."

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Uhm, let me be really, really, really clear about this: I know that I don't know what the pay was. That's why my first comment said that this if this is all made up (in other words he paid him a lot more), then there's no story.

 

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, iacas said:

But I'm not on any side right now because we don't know the most important bits of information. So I see little point in even discussing it.

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Yeah, you just seem to be trolling your own forum. If you don't want to discuss this and have nothing to add, why post here?

Apologies, just reread this and it comes off as too aggressive - didn't mean it to sound that way.

I was discussing this entire thing in a hypothetical, which I've said a few times in this thread. We do that all the time in forums. It makes it fun.

Edited January 31, 2019 by chspeed

[iacas]

  On 1/31/2019 at 6:59 PM, chspeed said:

Uhm, let me be really, really, really clear about this: I know that I don't know what the pay was. That's why my first comment said that this if this is all made up (in other words he paid him a lot more), then there's no story.

Yeah, you just seem to be trolling your own forum. If you don't want to discuss this and have nothing to add, why post here?

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Because I think it's stupid that people are slamming a guy when they don't know the most important fact about the whole thing.

Let's just make up a bunch of unsubstantiated stuff, or find someone who will make up a bunch of unsubstantiated stuff, and talk about it! What fun!

[chspeed]

  On 1/31/2019 at 7:07 PM, iacas said:

Because I think it's stupid that people are slamming a guy when they don't know the most important fact about the whole thing.

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See my edited response above. Anyway, this horse has been beaten enough. 🙂

At least none of us have the problem of deciding how much to tip on $1.2M 😉