Putting with the Flagstick In? - New 2019 Rules

[iacas]

 

 

[Vinsk]

I’ve come around to liking this kid. Even more with this.

[Jeremie Boop]

On 1/5/2019 at 3:48 PM, Rulesman said:

 

This pretty much comes as no surprise, I'd hope, to anyone here. However, I've had multiple exchanges with people both online and in person about how leaving it in is better where people were sure I was wrong. One person tried to explain that they wouldn't have changed the rule if it was actually a beneficial thing. I'll obviously be leaving/asking the flag to be left in whenever I putt.

[Missouri Swede]

While traveling this last week I was listening to Hank Haney's show on SiriusXM radio. He had some very harsh words for the USGA for allowing this rule to be implemented.  I was tempted to repeat here the term he used to describe them (the USGA), but I deleted it since I might not have remembered it quite correctly.

He also had some strong words for those tour pros who won't leave the flagstick in (since they're ignoring a way of possibly saving a stroke).

[DaveP043]

10 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

While traveling this last week I was listening to Hank Haney's show on SiriusXM radio. He had some very harsh words for the USGA for allowing this rule to be implemented.  I was tempted to repeat here the term he used to describe them (the USGA), but I deleted it since I might not have remembered it quite correctly.

He also had some strong words for those tour pros who won't leave the flagstick in (since they're ignoring a way of possibly saving a stroke).

Haney ALWAYS has harsh words for the USGA, no matter what the issue currently at hand.  Its possible that he's justified in this case, but when he's said the sky is falling so many times before, its hard to pay much attention this time.

[rehmwa]

15 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

One person tried to explain that they wouldn't have changed the rule if it was actually a beneficial thing.

HA!  I'd have suggested that the rules committed aren't that bright and have countered "they wouldn't have changed the rule HAD THEY REALIZED it was actually a beneficial thing"

12 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

He also had some strong words for those tour pros who won't leave the flagstick in (since they're ignoring a way of possibly saving a stroke).

I'd still emphasize that pros have good speed, so 'saving' a stroke at the pro level is less impactful than for those of us that don't have great speed - and even then, it's likely saving most of the time because our gross misses that hit the stick would give us much easier comeback shots more often than just canning the hard shot in (though that too)

Tour pros aren't known to be bright.  They are known for being excellent at doing something in a highly repeatable fashion.  NO KIDDING that they'd be resistent to ANY change.  It's frustrating the public doesn't get this - so many people responding "But, I don't see pros leaving it in for putting/chipping,,,,"  what a terrible excuse not to examine something with a critical eye.

Edited January 28, 2019 by rehmwa

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Tour pros aren't known to be bright.  They are known for being excellent at doing something in a highly repeatable fashion.  NO KIDDING that they'd be resistent to ANY change.  It's frustrating the public doesn't get this - so many people responding "But, I don't see pros leaving it in for putting/chipping,,,,"  what a terrible excuse not to examine something with a critical eye.

Bingo.

[p1n9183]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

I disagree. Not only are different people going to see different rates (my kid plays 3x as much golf as I do, maybe more, so it's going to save her more than it saves me, and that's if we're equally skilled putters).

This - as well as all of the other studies showing the same thing - show that leaving the flagstick in is an advantage, which the USGA/R&A said it was not when they both proposed and issued the Rules change.

I agree with both but how much it help? all the studies i saw said that it helps but none of them said how much over 18 holes. I know that with different putting skills and green speeds will help more or less, but how much in average? I guess it would be around 0 for tour pros and like 2..3 strokes for 30 handicapers but i would like to know exactly with supporting data.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

I agree with both but how much it help?

I don't care, and I don't think that's the point. Also, again, it's going to vary for obvious reasons.

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I moved the posts here, so you can discuss it a bit more if you'd like.

If you read above, too, you'll see posts where I show that ~11,000 putts per year from outside of 10 feet are hit 4+ feet past the hole. The flagstick could affect as many as 800 of those putts, and not always just by one stroke: a ball that goes in that would have gone six feet by the hole (~3,000 of those from just 25-40 feet occur per year on the PGA Tour) can lead to a three-putt, possibly saving a golfer TWO strokes.

And as I've said before, imagine that Tiger rolls his 30-footer to tap-in range at the Masters this year, and Bryson or some unknown guy, from 29 feet, gooses his putt, hits the stick, and drops to nip Tiger by one.

Plus, it's not like the distribution will be even. Some golfer might not benefit at all this year, and another might benefit five or six times.

[p1n9183]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't care, and I don't think that's the point. Also, again, it's going to vary for obvious reasons.

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I moved the posts here, so you can discuss it a bit more if you'd like.

If you read above, too, you'll see posts where I show that ~11,000 putts per year from outside of 10 feet are hit 4+ feet past the hole. The flagstick could affect as many as 800 of those putts, and not always just by one stroke: a ball that goes in that would have gone six feet by the hole (~3,000 of those from just 25-40 feet occur per year on the PGA Tour) can lead to a three-putt, possibly saving a golfer TWO strokes.

And as I've said before, imagine that Tiger rolls his 30-footer to tap-in range at the Masters this year, and Bryson or some unknown guy, from 29 feet, gooses his putt, hits the stick, and drops to nip Tiger by one.

Plus, it's not like the distribution will be even. Some golfer might not benefit at all this year, and another might benefit five or six times.

I do care, that´s why I ask.
OK 11000 putts per year i guess among all the players. Over how many rounds? that could give us a more precise number. A pro average 1,35 strokes in a 6 foot putt so the flag will help him gain 1,35 strokes in the best case scenario. 

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

A pro average 1,35 strokes in a 6 foot putt so the flag will help him gain 1,35 strokes in the best case scenario. 

No, in a best case "scenario," it could easily save him two strokes: the ball goes in versus he three-putts.

I'm not saying it's going to shave a stroke a round, but it's likely a non-negligible number. We can't know "how many" - we can only make educated guesses - because ShotLink isn't tracking this stuff, we don't have an alternate universe where we can hit all putts with the flagstick in and out, etc.

The educated guesses by Lou Stagner are up to 800 putts per year would hit and be affected by the flagstick, and that's just the ones outside of 10'.

[p1n9183]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

No, in a best case "scenario," it could easily save him two strokes: the ball goes in versus he three-putts.

I meant in average There´s a sligth chance that he also treeputt from 6 feet for a 3 strokes gain! Haha.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The educated guesses by Lou Stagner are up to 800 putts per year would hit and be affected by the flagstick, and that's just the ones outside of 10'.

That´s something. Acording to PGA stats, in average a player had 80 rounds last year. With 196 players that´s 15680 rounds among all of them. 800 putts affected gaining 1,35 strokes in 15680 rounds... for a player it´s 0,07 shots gained each round and 5,5 strokes gained each year. That´s and improvement in scoring average from 70,8 to 70,73 that leaves you in the same spot in scoring average Ranking. For me that´s a non-negligible number for a PGA Tour member. Another world and numbers are for the amateurs, i think it will help them a bit more, but I still think it will be a non-negligible number.

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

I meant in average There´s a sligth chance that he also treeputt from 6 feet for a 3 strokes gain! Haha.

There is no "average" in a "scenario." 🙂

[iacas]

https://lowestscorewins.com/tips/putting-with-the-flagstick-in

If the flagstick is leaning so much that a ball can’t fit* or it’s moving around in the hole due to high winds, take it out from short range or have it tended from long range (the flagstick and the person tending it can help with distance perception).nt  

To illustrate this:

Incidentally, the ball in "C" is considered "holed" so you can just pick it up. And that flagstick is leaning A LOT.

In B, the ball will be deflected down and in. Even if it comes at the hole with enough speed to rebound, it has to rebound back pretty far to get high enough on the ball that it stays out, as any time the midpoint of the ball (on the bottom) is over the hole, it'll fall back in.

[colin007]

Flagstick in not such a sure thing, new Golf Digest study from Cal Poly professor shows - Golf Digest

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Hmmmmm

[iacas]

2 hours ago, colin007 said:

Hmmmm

I just posted about this:

You've gotta read more than just the title.